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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be fed up with my DD having to prop up the less able children

412 replies

endlesschatonthecarpet · 25/06/2012 18:27

OK, I know I probably am being unreasonable and await a flaming! My daughter (in year 1) is very quick, very clever but not blessed with much patience! Because she is one of the top in the class she always seems to be paired with a talk partner who is finding the work more of a struggle. I completely understand that this can be useful sometimes, but it seems to happen every day and some days my DD comes hope very fed up and grumpy because she's had to "waste time". She gets what the task is once the teacher has done the initial set up and is keen to get going. This endless sitting on the carpet with whiteboards talking to another child who is not working at the same level is doing her head in! Now, I fully accept that the teacher has to consider the needs of all the children - not just my precious DD, but couldn't she at least sometimes just send the more able children off to get started while she does a bit more work with the others or pair up the bright children so they can really develop their ideas?

Obviously I've said to my DD that she needs to get on with whatever the teacher asks her to do and haven't given her any indication that I share her feelings about this practice but I do feel really frustrated on my daughter's behalf.
Anyone else feel the same or am I alone in my unreasonableness?

OP posts:
ImaginateMum · 25/06/2012 21:24

Everyone does know this is just for talk time, right? Which should be a tiny proportion of every school day, probably less than five minutes??

youarekidding · 25/06/2012 21:30

Imaginate I'm not sure they do despite many of us repeatedly mentioning it Wink much easier to think this clever girl is being used as unpaid hired help!

It was the use of talking partners that helped the school see that despite my DS' literacy problems he is able. They could see he could form ideas, communiacate them but not write them down.

CaramelTree · 25/06/2012 21:31

What is the purpose of talk time then? And how does it teach verbal reasoning? What kinds of methods are used and how is this different to the verbal reasoning taught in written work?

If it is very important that the most able children get the learning experience of talking to the less able, shouldn't this learning experience be available to everyone not just the brightest kids? Likewise, if it is very important to work with the more able, when does the most able child get this opportunity?

ImaginateMum · 25/06/2012 21:35

Carameltree, , in the class I help in, they all get a go talking with me! Smile And with the teacher. Hopefully we count as more able...

quirrelquarrel · 25/06/2012 21:36

As for the "gifted and talented" strategies- don't hold your breath- some schools might be fantastic for it, but what I've heard about them (and was offered through various orgs/NAGTY) isn't amazing. Very limited....still structured around NC....selected groups still have wide ranges of ability, so there's still some frustration to be felt in the very place where there shouldn't be any.

CaramelTree · 25/06/2012 21:37

That isn't really the same as talking to a peer though, is it?

Seriously, what is the purpose of talk time?

I've googled it, and cannot find an explanation.

It just seems to be talking to another child about something you both know about. Isn't that just what kids do in the playground when they're discussing Doctor Who?

ImaginateMum · 25/06/2012 21:38

I do run specific talk sessions which last longer (25 minutes). Children come to those for varying reasons, but the OP's daughter would potentially be a candidate as sometimes the reason is patience and recognising other's abilities.

For example, one of the girls in my group is not that fluent in English (newly arrived) but extremely insightful. It has been good for some of the "more able" to see that sometimes her perspective is extremely valuable and something they may not have come up with themselves.

Sparks1 · 25/06/2012 21:39

Likewise, if it is very important to work with the more able, when does the most able child get this opportunity?

One would hope after more than 6 months formal education.

And after that short time you'd think it's questionable as to whether they really are proven as that more "able"

herethereandeverywhere · 25/06/2012 21:40

As a child I was frequently put in the same position as the OP's daughter although I remember it more clearly in secondary school. I constantly felt held back and frustrated - that the bottom of the class girl was being imposed on me - again. In fact I can remember being quite unkind to her (something that I'm thoroughly ashamed of as an adult) I suffered my own share of bullying so to think I was the bully to someone else is shameful.

I clearly wasn't getting whatever it was I was supposed to out of the experience. In science I was sick and tired of being the last to finish the p*ss easy experiment whilst the teacher offered no assistance or recognition of my teaching assistant function. I adored university. Being surrounded by like-minded intelligent people who wanted to learn was like a breath of fresh air, like coming home. I'm not sure what you're hoping the OP's daughter will get from what's being described but I can't say it did anything for me - except make me somewhat resentful.

I felt that matching the brightest with the least able was primarily to help the teacher, it kept me back at the pace of the rest of the class and provided helpful one to one assistance for the struggling pupil.

CaramelTree · 25/06/2012 21:42

If she is more perceptive and more able to come up with ideas that other children don't, how are they more able?

I have no particular axe to grind here. I'm not exceptional in academic terms, and neither of my children are, but it does seem to me that a lot of teachers just seem to think that very able children are an inconvenience whose obvious frustration at not being taught to the level they are at is seen as a lack of social skills. Try teaching the rest of the class below their ability level and see if their social skills are any better in such a situation!

CaramelTree · 25/06/2012 21:44

Sparks, they might not be more able in six months time. What has that got to do with educating them appropriately during those six months?

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 25/06/2012 21:45

Caramel:

?Talk is an important means by which we communicate and build social relationships, and it plays a crucial role in learning? (Primary National Strategy)

In any lesson it is important that all children are fully involved in the learning activities if they are to make the best progress. Teachers usually have a question and response session as part of a lesson; whilst this provides the opportunity for individual children to respond to the teacher, the use of ?talk partners? as a strategy means that all children get the opportunity to think, discuss and express themselves orally.

Some children may feel more confident when expressing their ideas in a paired situation, rather than to the whole class, when the fear of getting a question wrong may actually restrict their learning; the shared responsibility for an opinion or view which comes with this strategy can raise children?s self-confidence and encourage their engagement. It also gives the teacher more opportunities to ask higher order questions which require more thought, reflection and exploration, and it gives children time to think. There is significant research to show that children?s learning is restricted by low level questioning and lack of time to respond; the use of talk partners can really take children?s learning on further, and what?s more, it?s fun.

All research shows that when speaking and listening is well developed and encouraged it has a positive impact on children?s learning. So what is "Talk Partners"?

One simple strategy that many teachers already use is ?think, pair, and share?. Here children are provided with the task and with time to think before they discuss it with a partner followed by a paired discussion; the results of the discussion are then shared with a wider audience, such as the whole class. Teachers may have used this type of approach without the tag of ?Talk Partners?. The following brief guidance aims to indicate how this could be used on a more regular, planned basis, and builds on research about what really works"

"Some of the positive outcomes of using the talk partner?s approach are that it:
? provides an opportunity for all children to speak and listen to each other;

? helps children to generate ideas, views and opinions safely;

? provides the opportunity for all children to voice their understanding of ideas, concepts, vocabulary and linguistic conventions;

? enables participation by children who might not be as confident in the whole class situation;

? helps in the rehearsal of words and phrases before committing them to paper or contributing to a larger audience;

? develops thinking, speaking, listening, collaborative and cooperative skills;

? ensures all children are involved in the lesson;

? encourages the involvement of boys;

? enables children to learn from each other;

? provides thinking time;

? encourages extended responses;

? develops coherent thinking;

? develops ?process talk? (thinking through talk)"

From TalkPartners Booklet lancsgfl

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 25/06/2012 21:47

Lots of people here are comparing their own childhood experience to what the OP is describing. It may be that the OP's daughter's teaching is not using talk partners to the best advantage for all concerned. It may be however that what many of you are describing bears no comparison to what is going in in this class.

youarekidding and others have explained why

ImaginateMum · 25/06/2012 21:49

She is new to the language, so her perception and imagination is not reflected in her reading / writing ability. Her ideas may come out hesitantly, so she needs a more structured (smaller) session to ensure she is heard.

I should add that the sessions where that happens are FUN - game and story based - and an alternative to assembly (!!) so the high achievers in there are definitely not complaining. I didn't run the session last week, you should have heard the moans!

In terms of talk partners, this may be useful if you are interested:
www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/assessment/getfile.php?src=193/Talk+Partners+July+06.doc

ImaginateMum · 25/06/2012 21:50

Sorry, that was in response to caramel's questions.

Sparks1 · 25/06/2012 21:53

Sparks, they might not be more able in six months time. What has that got to do with educating them appropriately during those six months?

Because you can't assess a child in that short time imo, certainly not at that age. And most definitely not on the say so of a 6 year old whose parent states in the OP lacks patience.

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 25/06/2012 21:55

Caramel -

I am having trouble linking to the document, but her's more of it (you did ask!)

"Traditionally, children talk only in response to teachers? questions by putting their hands up and waiting to be chosen. This can often result in:

  • the same children answering questions each time;
  • children waiting so long that they forget what they want to say;
  • shy children not contributing;
  • all interaction being between the child and the teacher;
  • the teacher dominating the talk time. The time taken up with ?hands-up? sessions could be devoted to paired talking! This will result in:
  • greater involvement by all;
  • less time spent waiting;
  • more opportunities for language development;
  • reluctant or shy children being involved;
  • more focused learning;
  • increased interaction between children;
  • more interaction between all children and teacher; more opportunities for creative and exciting discussion"
JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 25/06/2012 21:57

Aaah Imaginate X post

www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/assessment/getfile.php?src=193/Talk+Partners+July+06.doc

Hopefullyrecovering · 25/06/2012 21:58

I don't think there is such a thing as a selective independent school for 5 and 6 year olds

There are stacks of selective schools for 5 & 6 YO. Lots of them. And what is surprising is that (a) they do the selection at 3, because the children are generally admitted into nursery at 3 and (b) the selection is pretty well accurate, in that very few children have to be weeded out later on for not being able to keep up the pace.

This is an absolutely widespread practice and is not niche in any way. Well not niche insofar as selective independents go.

hawkmoon269 · 25/06/2012 22:02

Honestly I despair of parents who fight to get their child into an 'academic' school at such a young age.

dowagers It's very hard to get a place at an academically selective school aged 11 if you come from a state school (without years of coaching).

There's nothing wrong with wanting an "academic" school for your child whatever their age. It's personal choice.

People "fight" to get their child into stage school, sports teams etc too. Not my choice but fair enough. Each to their own, surely?

WicketyPitch · 25/06/2012 22:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DowagersHump · 25/06/2012 22:03

I didn't know that Hopefully and I find it terribly sad that people will put their 3 year olds through an academic selection process.

I'm also rather cynical, having been unfortunate enough to have gone to 'selective' schools which seemed to find places for rich children who weren't terribly bright. Amazing what funding a new building can do for your child's intelligence

hawkmoon269 · 25/06/2012 22:05

"honestly I despair of parents who fight to get their child into an 'academic' school at such a young age."

Was a quote from up thread. Not my opinion...

Nevertooearlyforcake · 25/06/2012 22:09

I spent all of primary school helping my friend with her work. I remember pointing out to her when we were in our final year that she wouldn't be able to have me help her all the time when we went to secondary school. I don't remember feeling held back or frustrated, it probably helped cement my understanding of things as I worked them through with her

hawkmoon269 · 25/06/2012 22:10

dowagers You clearly have no idea what the selection process at age 3 involves. The children have no idea they are being assessed. They actually tend to enjoy the process! (playing, chatting to different adults etc)

And yes, some schools do seem to let rich kids in even though they're not quite up to standard. But not the top schools. Look at somewhere like Christs Hospital (I have no personal connection) that accepts children on merit and then works out fees based on what parents can afford. Many children's parents pay nothing.

I'm guessing you have very little first hand experience of the independent sector. Perhaps I'm wrong...?