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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be fed up with my DD having to prop up the less able children

412 replies

endlesschatonthecarpet · 25/06/2012 18:27

OK, I know I probably am being unreasonable and await a flaming! My daughter (in year 1) is very quick, very clever but not blessed with much patience! Because she is one of the top in the class she always seems to be paired with a talk partner who is finding the work more of a struggle. I completely understand that this can be useful sometimes, but it seems to happen every day and some days my DD comes hope very fed up and grumpy because she's had to "waste time". She gets what the task is once the teacher has done the initial set up and is keen to get going. This endless sitting on the carpet with whiteboards talking to another child who is not working at the same level is doing her head in! Now, I fully accept that the teacher has to consider the needs of all the children - not just my precious DD, but couldn't she at least sometimes just send the more able children off to get started while she does a bit more work with the others or pair up the bright children so they can really develop their ideas?

Obviously I've said to my DD that she needs to get on with whatever the teacher asks her to do and haven't given her any indication that I share her feelings about this practice but I do feel really frustrated on my daughter's behalf.
Anyone else feel the same or am I alone in my unreasonableness?

OP posts:
JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 30/06/2012 07:11

math- have you read the links?. It's not like that AT ALL

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 30/06/2012 08:23

unless you count - learning to listen, take turns, verbalise your reasoning, agree on what you are going to feedback to the teacher, talk to children with whom you never play, interact with children who have a different first language "noblesse oblige"

seeker · 30/06/2012 08:34

I think yoiu have completely misunderstood talk time, mathsanxiety.

Worrywartisorrying- I do hope you have a school place for your son now--!: that the school and LEA have faces up to their responsibilities.

worrywortisworrying · 30/06/2012 10:55

Not even close Seeker Sad

FWIW, though, I don't think the OP is being unreasonable.

I wouldn't want to feel that my DD was constantly being put with children who were less able. The OP's DD should be mixing with ALL of the children in the class, but that doesn't sound as if that's what's happening.

I would worry about DD being 'used' to calm / control more disruptive pupils (I know this because I see her in action with her DBro! Wink) and have taken the choice to enrol her into a highly selective pre-prep as I feel this is the environment that is right for her (she is the sort of child who hates soft play areas and would prefer horse riding or spanish class!!)

Equally, I worry about DS going to school because I think there are going to be 29 sets of parents (If DS does go to school, there will be 30 in his class with 1 P/T TA, compared to 16 in DD's class and 2 F/T TA) who hate him because he will be the disruptive one and the one that's always appearing to cause trouble. Do I really worry about the other kids? Not really... but I do care that a negative reaction might have a negative effect on my DS.

So, as I said, I really can see both sides... but the OP is thinking about her DC, which is pretty much human nature.

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 30/06/2012 13:51

No, the OP isn't being unreasonable, if what she believes is happening, is actually happening.

But she's talking about talk partners, the time spent on the carpet when DCs have little discussions together about the little bit of teaching the teacher has presented. She's not talking about sitting next to a less able child all the time and helping them.

mathanxiety · 30/06/2012 17:04

'learning to listen, take turns, verbalise your reasoning, agree on what you are going to feedback to the teacher, talk to children with whom you never play, interact with children who have a different first language'

All done in preschool at 4, kindergarten at 5 -- i.e. in the years when hardly any formal teaching took place. They did lots of listening through show and tell, as well as asking questions, verbalising of reasoning through group science and pre-maths activities that were hands-on and involved demonstrating to the group, receiving suggestions from the group, forming group conclusions, teacher asking questions to the group. Above all, they did it through educational play, which was their main activity in those years. The issue of talking to children with whom they never played didn't come up as the matter of who played with whom was rotated and what stations they played at was also monitored and rotated. Children learning English as a second language (mostly Spanish and Polish speakers, about a quarter of each class) improved their language skills through almost constant interaction and exchange of ideas with the English speakers as well as with the teacher and aide.

As well as that there was plenty of modelling of what good school behaviour looked like, inclusiveness and friendliness to all included, plus acceptable practices in dispute resolution. By the time they got to first grade they had had about two years of brainwashing in good school behaviour and classroom etiquette (raise you hand to speak, etc.) Throughout their years there, their classroom seating arrangements were changed about every four weeks. The two classes in each year group were remixed every year. There was no visible ability grouping. The children were never given the impression that there was any superior or inferior group in the class, no official recognition given to their own observation of who was 'the best at maths', 'the best at art', etc.

It is a pity to mix up formal teaching with the equally important social and emotional education that needs to take place first if children are going to function successfully and supportively as part of a group in a learning environment. In the DCs' school being supportive of your classmates' learning once formal teaching got under way meant working quietly and independently when solo work was done, and working co-operatively and steadily in groups of usually four children on the few occasions when group work was assigned. It meant moving through the classroom in an orderly fashion and keeping your hands to yourself, and above all it meant being kind to the other children. This was really drummed into them.

If a child finished their solo work early they had their 'never done work' folder stocked with a variety of worksheets, puzzles, paragraph prompts, maths puzzles and questions in their desk to tackle and hand in when the class period was over. The idea was to contribute to a positive learning environment by allowing the teacher to teach, to hear everyone's reading individually every day and to go over everyone's arithmetic every day (so the weaker students got help from a professional and not a peer), and to allow the children who tended to finish assigned work quickly to move ahead seamlessly and without a prompt from the teacher to something challenging and interesting (so no need for the horribly divisive practice of visible ability grouping in the classroom) -- so you cleaned up your own mess and took care of your supplies, you worked quietly and you never sat around twiddling your thumbs, you didn't disrupt, you didn't bother the other children, you stayed on task in group activities and you practiced dispute resolution if someone wasn't co-operating.

At the same time, there was a lot of oral work, with show and tell, children chosen to explain something to the class, children asked to contribute their group conclusion or their group question after a project, suggestions and comments about a story elicited by the teacher at circle time, and input requested from every student when they had their daily chat about the weather, the season and their journals, and at prayer time when they could ask the class to pray for something that was on their minds. This practice in particular continued right through until they graduated at 14 and it helped them develop a sense of compassion. Old schoolish perhaps...

Group work became more frequent as they got older, once they had developed a sense of personal responsibility for their work -- a necessary precursor to successful group learning imo. The social skills and sense of team loyalty needed for successful group work that is a learning experience for all tend to develop later than age 4-7. A sense of team allegiance and a willingness to contribute to a team is a mindset you are more likely to find in ages 7+ if children have a solid foundation of a sense of personal responsibility and a sense of all being equally learners.

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 30/06/2012 17:05

None of that good stuff happens in UK schools, none of it.

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 30/06/2012 17:07

I must remember not to engage with you on educational topics, maths. I don't think you can hear over the noise of the bees in that bonnet.

PrincessScrumpy · 30/06/2012 17:07

I was really well behaved at school (primary) and regularly got paired with a naughty boy (who would kick and spit and prevent me from working). I don't think it held me back but it gave him ammunition to bully me at lunch time and take credit for my work while he did nothing. I get that sometimes it is helpful but not everyday, for every paired activity.

lilolilmanchester · 30/06/2012 17:15

too long a thread to read all the responses, so apologies if I am repeating others.

Schools should provide more than just academic education... for all it sounds like your DD is very bright, if as you say she is impatient and has little tolerance for the less able, then I'd say her teacher is trying to stretch her in a different direction. Many academically able graduates fail at job interviews because they don't possess the interpersonal skills employers are looking for ... so why not start encouraging "well roundedness" early on.

You're obviously concerned, so maybe have a word with the teacher but I'd think through honestly to yourself whether you think your daughter might be benefiting in other ways by helping the less able children first.

mathanxiety · 30/06/2012 17:20

'None of that good stuff happens in UK schools, none of it.'

I wasn't comparing and contrasting, except wrt the execrable practice of ability grouping and the lack of attention in any sort of systematic way to social and emotional development, as evidenced by the very existence of talk time. The practice of pairing children for talk time or any other purpose (such as behaviour control) is so tempting as a means for a teacher to farm out the business of teaching and dealing with disruptive children, and so obviously has the potential to contribute to negative unintended consequences such as frustration on one end of the scale and bullying on the other it is hard to imagine how anyone thought it was a sound practice.

giveitago · 30/06/2012 18:55

how do you know if your kid is in the top 5 or ten? I didn't think they told you in the state sector?

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