to think this is very wrong?

[47to31in7days]

www.newsrt.co.uk/news/teachers-at-salford-school-help-girl-pupil-15-have-abortion-without-telling-her-parents-488772.html

They ask for CONSENT FORMS to take the kids to a museum in the town centre during school hours...
or to rub sun lotion on little ones...
and they can't use corporal punishment on misbehaving pupils (quite rightly so IMO) even WITH parental consent, while mild smacking is still legal at home...

But when it comes to getting rid of an unwanted baby, suddenly teachers know what's best for a child who isn't theirs and the consent form doesn't get sent because the person who is actually responsible for the girl is a nuisance to be EXCLUDED from all decisions.

AIBU to be annoyed that anyone in a respected position at a school would think this was acceptable?

ABORTION IS MURDER IT SHOULD BE BANNED RAWWW SHAME ON TOSE WHO ABORT oh but parents should be told, because they would obviously support her decision!

I would like to correct some terminology regarding the OP: he/she is not 'pro-life' (we all are), he/she is 'anti-choice'.

Cotes is BU by using smart-arse feminist rhetoric. Although given her personal experience with sorting out an abortion for a friend in a country with pro-life laws and a pro-life majority, it is understandable, which is not the same thing as reasonable.

Calling pro-choice people "pro-death" or even "pro-abortion" is inaccurate, as extremists do in the abortion debate, but "anti-choice" is even worse as it implies that the pro-lifer is just against freedom, which can quickly be bounced up to "anti-woman" if a hardcore feminist is speaking. Being pro-life is a positive act in favour of human life from conception, not a negative act to oppose the choice to terminate a pregnancy. It is the same with euthanasia: those against doctor-assisted suicide and/or living wills are not anti-choice, as I've heard them called, but against the specific choice to allow oneself to die when one can be saved or ask to be killed by medics. They are pro-life. At least this issue doesn't lead to any "sexist" retorts.

Also that "Catholic-wank" remark is religion bashing and an inaccurate personal attack. I'm not Catholic, nor are many people who would want parents informed. Several of the people who have fully or partially supported my OP made it clear that they believe this girl should have a choice to abort, and are thus not pro-lifers or supporters of Catholic teaching (though they could still be Catholics, not all do everything the Vatican says) but they thought a parent should be told. I was talking about this with a pro-choice family member when it was in the news last weekend and she opposed the school's action as "unacceptable because they are there to teach, not get involved with a medical procedure". She was fully supportive of the girl's decision to abort otherwise.

47 - is your objection to Cote's points or to the fact that they are expressed, according to you, in 'smart-arse feminist rhetoric'? And if the latter, is it the idea that women are equal to men that bothers you, or the fact that you think people who think women are equal to men are clever? Would you prefer dumb-arse feminist rhetoric?

I do not have a problem with the view of men and women being equal.

edam- I believe in the dictionary definition of feminism, "working for the equality of women to men", but NOT what modern feminism has became, man-hating and valuing foetuses and embryos according to their wantedness rather than our common humanity. People without a uterus in their anatomy (to avoid excluding trans/GNC etc. ) CANNOT hold a developing human life in the prenatal stage in their bodies, so abortion is not a sexist/misogynist issue and never can be.

It is not as if patriarchal cultural factors have made it so uterus-possessors are the bearers of children, while cisgender men cannot bear babies. No men-only members' club or Masonic lodge voted to ensure that was the case. That is our natural reality.

Also, we live in a "rape culture" except that rape is viewed as wrong by >99.9% of people, rapists are hated more than murderers by a lot of us, the long prison sentences and "nonce" (rule 45 Prison Rules) wings, sex criminals are seen as the lowest of the low even in Category A prisons, you are banned from many professions for LIFE if convicted of a sexual offence, falsely accused men face social difficulties for years or the rest of their lives despite vindicating themselves in a court, etc. To suggest that men rape because [patriarchal] society pressures them into it is an outrage. They rape despite the overwhelming prohibition of society hence the very severe consequences. What more can we do to rapists short of life sentences in "supermax" cages or execution, and most feminists would find both of those contrary to universal human rights?

And "slut-shaming". The better solution to this double standard, which I freely admit is real, is to encourage greater sexual responsibility and continence for men and women, but particularly men, and attack the idea that men are "playas" or "studs" by copulating like animals with dozens of attractive women with NO intention of any lasting, loving, faithful relationship. It's not to do "slutwalks" and promote even more sexual licentiousness. The sexism is there, and it could be responded to appropriately, it's the response of mainstream feminism I don't like.

This is derailing a thread over schools crossing the line and parents being left un-notified of important matters. If she said she was pro-choice I would have no issue with that. It was "anti-choice" that was wrong.

Also feminism in the mainstream movement seems to oppose or marginalise SAHM (see the Rosen/Romney anti-parent nonsense, which is OFFENSIVE to huge numbers of SAHMs who believe they are doing the best thing for their children but some would insist are "letting the Sisterhood down".)

Childbearing itself is viewed suspiciously in some of the material I've read, by no means the radical end of the movement. Could this not be a major reason for the high number of abortions?

We do not know this girl's home circumstances. We do not know her cultural background. We do not know how she became pregnant. We do not know who the father was.

I have taught girls with loving families, but if they were to become pregnant they would be murdered by loving family and the family would be doing the right thing in their oppinion.

There are families where the daughter becomes pregnant because of incest, be it father or brother.

There are famiilies were if a girl had an abortion she would be thrown out of home and never spoken to again.

We simply do not know in this case.

However, it has to be right that if a child is impregnated by a father, or is raped, or has prolife family, she can still have control over her body and that she is supported in this.

And if it is right for an abused teenager then why shouldn't it be right for a teenager who is having fantastic, consensual sex when a condom breaks.

CotesduRhone

You did the right thing, it must have been so hard for all of you, well done for supporting your friend.

The school did not cross the line. The school kept their faith with the child who is their responsibility in this situation. The school did the right thing. They in fact had no right to go against the girl's wishes and tell her parents, the same as the doctors had no right to do so once she had been deemed competent.

School counsellors (and if a teacher is acting in that capacity, presumably is also bound by it) DO have a professional requirement to keep the student's confidentiality - I can't see why you find this so hard to comprehend.

Sure, if she'd been burning down the school and putting others at risk, then the parents should be informed - but she wasn't. She made a choice about her own body that affected no one else except for her. She is entitled to that autonomy and entitled to tell who she chooses about it. In fact the article said that her parents were told after the event.

Re. the girl found bleeding in the toilet after an abortion - she would have been told by her doctors to be with someone for 24h afterwards, she would also have been recommended to go home/ somewhere to be watched and rest. If she chose to ignore that sound medical advice and go clubbing straight after, then she is a fool and lucky to be alive.

"I would like to correct some terminology regarding the OP: he/she is not 'pro-life' (we all are), he/she is 'anti-choice'."

So... You're "pro-life" because you support the slaughter of living human beings, and the OP is "anti-choice" because he supports the right for EVERY human being to have LIFETIME of choices?

Hmm... That's typical pro-abortion self-righteousness. :/
Grow up and learn to think.

And that's typical anti-abortion rhetoric for you - black and white thinking trumps reason

An argument which the OP stated that they didn't want on this thread.

OP - the girl chose what was best for her; thankfully there were adults who she could turn to. This is what she thought was best, for her, at the time.

We can argue all day (and probably longer) about whether we consider this to be wrong or right - but providing a service like this for vulnerable teens is necessary, and prevents them acting in desperation (or harm being visited upon them by family).

When I was at school we had a teacher (the guidance counselor) who everyone knew you could go to if you were in trouble and he'd help you out in confidence. And this was for everything - drugs, family problems, emergency contraception.
I was lucky in that I never needed to speak to him but I know some of my friends did - including a girl who was being abused by her father and was too scared to speak to anyone else because she was terrified of knowledge of it coming out. He managed to help her and no one in the school knew a whisper about it (I did only because she was my best friend and told me.)

It was because we all knew this teacher would keep our confidences that pupils came forward instead of just keeping quiet.

If my daughter didn't tell me she had an abortion I would be upset but I would understand. It's not something daughters always want to share with their parents for a number of reasons.
But I hope my DCs have a teacher like that - a responsible adult they know will not judge and will help them in any circumstances.

bakakurisu, there is an ethical forum for you to debate abortion on. I appreciate your opposition to "anti-choice", which is a plain silly term, but this was about the girl's mother and/or father being able to know. It seems a fairly modest thing to ask, given that some people would be incensed that they didn't have to give consent, all I am looking for is notification.

whoever said that's a "red herring"- well it's not. They could make life uncomfortable but isn't that a risk worth taking as the alternative is to completely expunge parents from the issue? Plus there are always exceptions through judicial bypass for girls where abuse is at issue, including incest with a brother as has been mentioned. (Unfortunately, cases of brother/sister incest often arise from the siblings either being separately abused by their parent/s or being forced to engage in sex acts by an adult abuser. There is a book coming out this week about exactly that sort of case.) The difference between parents having the choice, in non-abuse cases, to prevent an abortion by legal authority and just being told is vast.

sashh- did you not raise an "incest" objection to a poster opposing school interference in family life in general last week? that thread was deleted after OP made some OTT remarks, and he was clearly much more extreme, but I seem to remember you were one of the later posters before everyone agreed to shut it down. in secondary education IIRC.

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The parents do not have the right to know if the girl has decided to withhold this information from them. She is being treated as a competent adult, and as such her confidence is hers to choose with whom she shares it. YOu are not getting this, OP. The school and the doctors were following her wishes - your parental "rights" do not exist in this scenario.

to repeat what I said last night - if schools had to notify parents, it just wouldn't happen that parents would be told by schools, what would happen is the girl would start talking, the teacher would stop her as soon as they realised she was telling them she's pregnant and tell her that if she discussed planning to have an abortion they'd have her parents. At that point, a girl who didn't want her parents to know would end the conversation.

So if the girl doesn't want her parents to know, they still won't know, but any parent of a teenager who's DD didn't feel they could talk to them would not have the comfort of knowing that someone talked it all through with their DD.

while I'd like to be my child's first point of call if they had a major decision to make like this, I accept there are a lot of other adults in their life who they might feel more comfortable talking too. (Although as a mum of a boy, this isn't an issue I'm likely to face)

I just know that if it had been me at 15 I would never have wanted my mother to know. At over 40, I STILL would not want my mother to know that I had been pregnant at 15.

My Mother would NOT have been supportive, I would have had it thrown back at me whenever she thought I was out of line - right to this very day.

Forcing the child to involve the parents could damage that relationship forever - and that is not an exageration.

My DM didn't even believe in contraception for heaven's sakes. Feels I was sinning by delaying having DC for so many years while married. (Not Catholic but an evangelical church).

Cotes the girl who sleppt rough and then had a 'miscarriage' at which point her family took her back - that's going to haunt me :(

It was me who said notification was a red herring and I stand by that. Could make life uncomfortable, forsooth - massively more than uncomfortable I'd say. For one thing it would lead to silencing of many girls as per Dontmindifido's post; for another, in various family situations it would be just as bad as telling the parents pre-abortion. I repeat, we don't know this specific girl's situation but we don't have to; one rule for all, assuming appropriate competency. The girl gets to decide, and the situation is relevantly very different from the school trip scenario in the original post.

I often have parents phone me up wanting to discuss their child's problems/issues/reasons they are coming to us.

I always offer support to the parent but explain about confidentiality and explain I cannot discuss why their childis accessing our services.

I have never once had a parent be aggressive or rude to me about this and they always are just pleased their child is accessing support.

Not too sure about the abortion debate on here really . It certainly wasn't a desicion I personally took lightly, I will always feel very sad about hat I did but I have gone in to become a loving mum and step-mum and to be called a murderer is actually ridiculous and incredibly insensitive to myself and anyone else who has gone through this.

It's legal in this country - if you feel that strongly about it go and live somewhere where is isn't.

sensual- sure it's legal- that doesn't tell you anything about it being right or wrong. I kept my personal views on that out of this for 7 pages as I wasn't debating whether abortion itself is morally justifiable... but as you bring it up, I believe it's unjustifiable killing and the law has nothing to do with that. I hold to a universal ethical right to life from conception, applying in much the same way as the one against slavery and persecution of minorities. Neither of those would become morally acceptable because they were legalised, either by majority vote or otherwise.

As far as emigrating just because the government approve of abortion, it's not far to Ireland (or even NI- wouldn't have to leave the United Kingdom!) but the only way the State is going to get to tell me where to live is by sending me to prison or extraordinary rendition .

47, do you realise that most conceptions fail - often before the woman herself knows? There's no guarantee that an embryo will turn into a foetus that will become a live birth, I'm afraid. If life is sacred from the moment of conception, then God is the biggest abortionist of all.

It's ludicrous to suggest a bundle of cells has human rights or any right to existence. It's ludicrous to suggest an embryo a few centimetres long has any right to exist. It's all in the lap of the Gods. Or God, or Mother Nature, or human biology or whatever approach you take.

I can understand why some people believe a six month old foetus should be carried to term where possible, although I disagree. But to apply the same reasoning to a bundle of cells or an embryo is just daft.

Absolutely don'tmindifido.

Your position on the laws round termination are not such a surprise 47to31, it rather exemplifies why parents can be the least appropriate people for a pregnant teenager to talk to. Discussion with impartial health care providers (who will encourage the young person to also seek family/friend support) allows the young person to make their own choices at a time when parental responses may be simplistic being framed round absolutist principles that allow no space for a young person to discuss their needs.

A parent who believes abortion is 'unjustifiable killing' is no more appropriate for a teen considering abortion to talk to than the parent who believes themselves shamed by their daughter's pregnancy. That both groups would like to have more control in these circumstances makes me so pleased our laws are established and that alternative care pathways available. It is a shame that teens may feel unable to talk to their parents about this and more of a shame still that some would love to be able to share but have already had to acknowledge the limits of their parents.

edam, you are the one who attacked my response to being called "anti-choice", if you support third trimester abortion it's not surprising.

The size of the unborn life isn't the issue, it's that a new life with new DNA is created at fertilisation (which can rarely divide into twins or more). I am fully aware that most conceptions don't lead to a full-term pregnancy and a birth, but deliberately removing the life when it's growing is very different to it just dying naturally. But this isn't an abortion debate, I already said, it was always about these particular circumstances and not whether she should have aborted or not.

It is legal for a 15 year old to have an abortion without the girl's parents being notified. The school don't have to be notified. It seems that that's what you have the problem with.

A 15 year old can access the pill, the morning after pill, sexual health services and abortion services without her parents being informed.

Anti-choice is not a silly term. It is a descriptive term. If you believe that abortion is wrong then you are against people being allowed to make that choice.