to be all of a caffuffle about the toddler / road incident

[gnomeland]

DS 1(6) and DS2(3) go to school by scooter. They both can get up some speed but on the whole are safe.

There's one particularly nasty road crossing which is on a corner, but with another v quiet dead end road coming off with no pavement (which we have to walk down). Essentially at the end, you have to look 4 ways at funny angles. (realise this isn't very clear.) I hate it as it is an awkward junction.

I have told DSs that they have to stop way before the end and get onto the pavement as soon as they can (but in doing this they are out of my sight - alternative is that they stay in the middle of the road).

Today, DS1 hurt himself so was being quite slow and DS2 went up ahead. As I came round the corner I saw him stepping from the pavement onto the main road. A car came round the corner and stopped (not emergency stop).

I was very shaken because cars can come round very fast and it could have been a lot worse.

Anyway, the driver of the car gave me a real mouthful that I shouldn't allow him on his scooter and I should be holding his hand at all times on the road.

So, what do you do. Am I wrong to allow a 3 year old to nursery on this scooter. I know it was a really dangerous situation but I have tried very hard to teach them road safety. I know if only takes once etc etc but I can't help feeling that it is unreasonable to expect him to walk along permanently holding my hand.

I'm all in a turmoil about it.

He should never be out of your sight and when there is no pavement you should be holding his hand - so he should stop, wait for you, get off his scooter for you to fold and carry while holding his hand with free hand.

Yabu

You need a BMW X5

or a Volvo XC90

Nothing less is sufficient for going to school.

Interesting para-phrase of my comments lentilly. Yes, I specifically said 2 mph didnt I.

Isnt it about finding a way for all road users/pedestrians etc to be safe together? Of course, keeping your children close enough is part of that, I havent said they should be allowed to race around randomly. But nor should they have to be strapped down or to thier parents for thier own safety. They certainly should be able to walk along a pavement without being run over!

TBH I get fed up with the 'car is king' brigade who seem to resent any impediment to their getting from A to B, especially something inconvenient like a child in the area.

Worra surely the onus is on the driver to LOOK if they reverse onto a pavement!! Pavement= pedestrian.

schoolgovernor, I did.

In fact on our school walk today we actually gave way to a boy of around 12/13 riding his bike on the pavement.

I understood because of the horrendous attitude of car drivers who speed down the very narrow B road in a 30mph zone and then almost mount the pavement when they meet a car coming the other way - the pavement we happen to be walking on.

Cars rev their engines when you are crossing the pedestrian crossing. They overtake cars slowing down for the lights so they can jump ahead, regardless of you stood waiting to cross.

They reverse out of drives without bothering to look and will even refuse to give way to us on the pavement, forcing us to wait until they have joined traffic on the road.

I hate to say it, but some lovely, kind and considerate people can turn into inconsiderate, selfish gits when behind the wheel of a car.

It's a shame that kids cannot scooter to school or feel unsafe riding their bikes on roads. I agree that cars should go slower and I'm all in favour of harsher penalties to force them to do this. But in the meantime you have to think of your child's safety.

I think YABU. If you know that there is a dangerous junction ahead you shouldn't have let him go ahead. He may usually know to stay on the pavement but as you found out today, that is not guaranteed.

I am not surprised the driver was angry, he was probably terrified as he could have had the harm of your son on his conscience if he had not stopped in time

But I don't thing anyone - motorist or otherwise is advocating any such thing gravity. I deplore irresponsible driving anywhere. You never know where or when a child could run in front of you. However - toddlers scudding along on scooters is a whole different matter. You make it sound as though the wise and safe precaution of having a child in a buggy or on reins is some kind of unreasonable law passed in a dictatorship! Until children are able to fully process the dangers around them they absolutely should be restrained. A car doesn't need to be moving terribly fast or dangerously to do a lot of damage to an out of control child.

As an aside I bloody hate unsurpervised kids on scooters. In the early stages of my pregnancy I had a three year old on a scooter crash into me, hitting my stomach. His mother, who had been busy chatting to her friend till she saw he had stopped asked him if HE was ok. No matter her little darling could have seriously harmed me.

I've been forced into the gutter with the pushchair due to young kids on scooters weaving in and out not watching where they are going

Sorry, but it's not just your DS that can get harmed, it's other people too.

And you can be fully aware and checking all your blindspots and mirrors and still run over a toddler who is walking behind a slowly reversing car. You can't see that low down.

There does need to be some common sense.

This must have been absolutely awful for you OP, really terrifying. I think the driver probably reacted out of shock, they must have been very badly shaken. I think walking to school for a bit is the best thing.

Oh my god, they musnt walk either now, eh folkgirl? The only way you wouldnt see a child crossing your driveway is if you werent paying attention or if they somehow materialised right behind your car and stood stock still there. Lets all drive our children the half mile to school, that will make us all safer.

Oh of course they can walk don't be ridiculous, but as much as you should be able to expect drivers to be aware and sensible, you should at least take some responsibility for your own and your children's safety!

We're not talking about older children who should have some road sense, but toddlers who should be supervised constantly when outside the house anyway.

Ragged I think you're right. I am actually a bit about children turning up to nursery in a pushchair normally.

But he can walk tomorrow, just thought the pushchair would reinforce the point with him. But he's far too heavy to push.

I am starting to see why so many people drive to school

gravity, you don't need to drive a Chelsea Tractor to be unable to see a small-ish child behind you.

I do think some people could make more effort to reverse into their drives and parking spaces so they don't need to reverse out of them, but even then a child bombing along the pavement could take you by surprise.

Something I did with ds a few times in carparks was to stand (with!) him behind parked cars to demonstrate that he was that much smaller than the height of their rear windscreen. No matter how carefully you drive, there will be times when a child is out of view.

Gravity - I think referring to people who don't think small unsupervised children should run into the road as the "car is king" brigade is as much of a silly paraphrasing as saying 'cars should slow down in built up areas = cars should only drive at 2mph' - which you objected to.

I cannot see how saying that I don't want a toddler on a scooter/bike/running to shoot out in front of a car that may not have enough time to stop is AT ALL the same as saying 'the car is king and no-one should impede my car journey'. Personally I don't want children running out in front of cars because I don't think it is a good thing for children to be injured or hurt, nor is it a good thing for a driver to have to live with the fact that they hit a child, even if it wasn't their fault. I think that is a perfectly valid viewpoint, and has nothing to do with entitled arrogance and thinking that when I am in my car, it is only my journey that is important.

or if they somehow materialised right behind your car

Umm, like on a scooter, gravity

Actually, gnomeland if everyone walked it would make the school run a lot safer. These problems only really arise on the school run because of the number of cars and small children on scooters in the same place at the same time.

It's hard for drivers to keep an eye on so many small people all at the same time and it's difficult for parents to keep an eye on their scootering child in a sea of scootering children.

If children walked with their parents and people left cars at home (where feasible of course) it would make life a lot easier.

I'm pleased the driver wasn't going too quickly to stop and just know that they were only angry because of the adrenaline - they would have been terrified to see your little one at that moment.

Gravity - I think that a running/scooting child could pretty much materialise behind your car - and a little child's head might only just come up above the bottom of the rear windshield, and would thus be even harder to spot when it arrived at speed.

No-one is saying that drivers shouldn't have to watch out for pedestrians and drive with due care and attention for their safety as well as the safety of other road users - what they ARE saying is that parents of small children ALSO have a responsibility to ensure that they are keeping their children as safe as possible!!

Yet most people on this thread think children should be attached to thier parent or buggy. doesnt this show you the extent to which we are prepared to bend over backwards and accommodate cars?

How about we have 20mph speed limits?

How about car drivers erverse into not out of their drives?

It is possible to reduce risk without cotton wooling children.

But that I realise is a more philosophical or political point.

In the meantime I do let my boys scoot ahead but I am vigilant and we are on a quiet road but I cant rule out a car reversing. I take that risk so that they have some freedom.

Apologies Op if I have hijacked at all by being a bit ranty!

I certainly don't "resent" driving past toddlers on scooters but they certainly make me nervous. I waas driving (slowly) through a narrow, residential road with a sharp turn uphill at the end. A small child on a scooter came flying down the hill and round the corner, was unable to stop and went straight over the handlebar and into the road, causing the car turning ahead of me to slam its brakes on. I was doing about 10mph tops, so other car probably about the same and it still nearly hit the child.

The mother wandered up chatting to her friend a couple of minutes later and looked surprised to find her screaming child lying in the road with the driver of the other car trying to find out if she was alright.

Jenai...because children moving fast on scooters materialise and then are suddenly stock still arent they.

Anyway, do you not look up/down the road to see if things are coming before you move out? Clealry not. Or do you just check for cars perhaps?

I haven't read the thread.

My Ds is 4. He 100% stops well before curbs and when ever I tell him to (before drive ways etc). He is always about 15 foot ahead but never anymore. He wears a reflective jacket and helmet. He knows to stop if we come close to a pedestrian and he will always stop if a car passes by also. He scoots next to any walls and hedges so to be on the correct side of the pavement. If he couldn't do these then I wouldn't be happy to take him out and about next to roads. I'd just keep scooting to the park or back garden instead.

Gravity

I agree with 20mph speed limits outside schools and in residential areas. It still won't stop people who think it doesn't apply to them, but perhaps they will drive at 26 in 20 zone rather than 36 in a 30 zone.

People reversing into their drives is an option, but I suppose people just don't think about it when they get home. But that still wouldn't eradicate the risk because wherever there is a reversing car, there is a risk - whether it's reversing into or out from.

You are vigilant and on a quiet road. You've made a risk assessment and you're happy with the level of risk. Which is different to not making a risk assessment and not even considering the risk.

YABU imo - I wouldn't let DS1 out of sight on a scooter in the type of scenario you describe and he is a sensible 5.5 yo. At 3 he had to scoot alongside me even on a pavement - I cringe when I see small kids scooting so fast on pavements next to busy roads, let alone on an actual road! Obviously in a park, he can go off as he likes.

OP, it only takes one occasion for something awful to happen. I hope you are OK. And I also hope your DS's wear helmets!