To be infuriated with Keith Vaz on the grooming of girls by Asian men

[mumzy]

Just heard Keith Vaz on Today discussing this and being in total denial about the reality that in northern british cities and towns the street grooming of girls is disproportionatly done by Asian men and the majority of victims are white girls. His stance is it's the BNP making it out to be Asian men abusing white girls rather than accept the figues which show this crime is disproprtinately being committed by Asian men. Until those in positions ie police, social services, child protection stop being in denial this sort of thing will continue as these men will think no one will stop them.This has being going on for decades, I went to school in a northern city 20 years ago and knew of girls from chaotic backgrounds skipping classes to meet up with there much older and often married Asian boyfriends and often they'd be asked to bring a friend along for their mates. They'd be plied with alcohol and inevitably end up having sex some got pregnant. Is this a racist problem ? I think so and I speak as some one who is British but not white. There will always be people from every race who will think people of other races are inferior to them and will not flinch from abusing those who are not the same race as them. I also don't agree with the opinion of some such as Lee Jasper who say black people can't be racist I've had racist abuse during my lifetime from people who are white, black and other ethnicities. People like Keith Vaz who automatically blame the BNP do a lot of harm as it stops people discussing this publically in case they are seen as racist. This means in reality it doesn't get discussed rationally and openly so the abuse continues and the issue goes underground fuelling the support for extremist groups such as the BNP.

I don't think you are being naive Kendodd but I think your description oversimplifies the problem.

I just feel that the issue here is not really their race it's their crime which should be the issue

Also we really have a rethink about looked after children and how we keep them safe in London you have gang rapes of young girls by gang leaders up noth you have rapes of young girls by older men

Very sad

S'OK Mr B

No harm, no worries.

It's just I'm a tad tetchy about the automatic assumption that if a young person goes off the rails, it must somehow be due to their family. Often it is (have professional experience myself in this area) but sometimes it is the bastard groomers knowing the system better than you do and teaching your child what to say/do/be.

Yes I realize that I am oversimplifying.

I wonder if they had targeted girls within their own communities, would they have been harder to access than, sad to say, these white girls who nobody seemed to care about.

:)

Working with looked after children I often see girls in the clutches of pimps all sorts and boys in th clutches of gangs due to th fact they are seeking the love and family they never had

have a rethink about looked after children and how we keep them safe

YY MrBo, I do get that but I sometimes feel it chimes into the messages we give women that rape is their fault, or their responsiblity. Of course there is more we can do to protect looked after children, but ultimately they were preyed upon because a group of men decided to be predators. 'Protection' is often very close to 'victim blaming' - not suggesting you're doing that at all, just that some people will trot out the 'they shouldn't have been there in the first place' line which excuses the rapists.

Kendodd if childrens home had mainly Asian girls in them and mostly in that area white girls had a stricter up bringing would they target the asian girls

To be honest I not sure at all

Mrbojangles1. How much do you know about Islam? Taken at it's simplest form this case was about a group of men who wanted sex and thought they'd get away with raping some vulnerable girls. Had the girls been Muslim I really think these men would've at least thought twice. Actually, scrub that. I think they'd have left them alone.

WilsonFrickett agreed its not their fault but

It is the case that we should not allowing such young girls to be out all night
I would allow it for my daughter or my foster daugter so why should a child in a home be treated any diffrent

Their are two elements to this with out blaming the girls because they are the victims the home managers have a CASe to answer in my mind the people in the wrong are Those men

But by the staff in the homes inaction they and some case to answer although I am guessing they are most likey bound by some god awful EU human rights law that prevents them keeping the girls in

Disclaimer I foster and do not and never have worked in a home so no idea what they are like

We are danger of putting the blame in the wrong place I think.
Just because these girls are vulnerable doesn't mean that anyone has the right to take advantage of them.
It seems to me that grown-ups should act like grown-ups.

thebestisyettocome. You are wrong. I have worked with Muslim girls raped by Muslim men.
Isn't it simply a case of rapists and paedophiles trying to justify their behaviour in anyway then can e.g. "They aren't as pure as Muslim girls." "She was drunk." "She'd had sex before." Or whatever.

I haven't heard any skirting around the race issue. Radio 4 have discussed it in every news report I have heard on the subject. Someone from the Jill Dando institute said that out of the information they have on grooming gangs, 50% are all white, and the remainder mixed. Only a small number were completely Asian.
IMHO the problem is with abusive men. The worse thing I heard on this was that when the police were first informed about this it was in 2008 by a young girl. Two men were arrested and there was DNA evidence. She was underage and there was DNA evidence. Yet the CPS decided she wasn't a credible witness. This made me so angry. So angry. And says so much about how the justice system treats rape victims.

The girls in this particular case may have been in care, but not all of the victims of this crime (with reference to the 'Asian' perpetrators, unlike those in KatieScarlett's case who were white) are.

It is pretty rife in my town (Midlands) and has been for years - my family have been affected, people I was at school with in the 90s were affected and later my place of work was affected - in quite a big way.

I can't think of one girl I know of those victims (and its a shocking number that it turns out I do know) who was in care. They all came from your typical loving family. It's a slow, gradual build up so that the girls don't realise anything is wrong at first - then the threats and fear is turned on and it's too late.

It's not about keeping children in care off the streets and away from these men, because they're not the only targets, and you're a fool if you think they are. It's about keeping these evil predators - which they bloody well are - away from children.

elinor.
Muslim men have raped Muslim girls but I don't believe they'd have done it in such a systematic and organised manner had these girls been Muslim.
Sorry to disagree.

And these girls aren't allowed out all night.

They end up staying out because threats are made by these men against the girls and their families - so often the girls get out of the house by any means necessary at night (sneaking out through a door or window perhaps) in order to stop these threats being carried out, not because they're allowed to wander the streets at all hours with no-one to care for them but because they're fucking terrified of what will happen if they don't

elinor.
The judge is this case has said the girls were targeted because they did not belong to the community or religion of the perpetrators. Are you still maintaining this case has no reference to 'race.'

Muslim men have raped Muslim girls but I don't believe they'd have done it in such a systematic and organised manner had these girls been Muslim

I just don't think we can say this with any confidence. Unfortunately, the way stigma operates in some groups, we'd never know whether girls were being victimised in this way or not. Different tactics are often used.

I have had direct experience of an Asian girl whose apparently loving boyfriend pressured her into sex, then into posing for very explicit photos, then tried to blackmail her with them. He demanded she sleep with 'friends' of his. It didn't work, because she told her parents who defended her rather than chuck her out, as some would. It transpired this was a not uncommon tactic used in that community to compromise girls who were then passed around.

We can never be certain, which is why I phrased my comment in the way I did.

Gin - in the interests of accuracy and fairness:

The police DID believe her and supported her. It was the CPS who thought she wouldn't be a credible witness.

Of course there is a cultural element to these crimes. Keith Vaz is indeed in denial in suggesting 'race' is not a factor. Why he kept quoting the BNP as justification for what he is saying is beyond me.

More worrying imo is that the Assistant Chief Constable of Manchester Police, Steve Heywood has also been saying the same thing. The police got it wrong initially, possibly unable to recognise the cultural aspects to the case and yet they are still denying there is a cultural element.

'Race' was central to this case, and it cannot be denied just because the BNP are trying to twist the subject. It needs to be discussed rationally but when Jack Straw highlighted this several months ago he was attacked for it. Yes these men were opportunistic, yes the most vulnerable girls in this area were more likely to be from white backgrounds, but as one Muslim leader said today "(these criminals) think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community."^

YANBU and Keith Vaz is an ignorant nobber.

Grooming is a way of controlling the victim by coercion and trapping them in complicity. The acceptance of money drugs and alcohol ensures compliance and co operation. It is a very powerful tool.

Also these crimes are often commited in daytime as the takeaway workers work in the evening. This is not about young girls out late at night with the intention of engaging takeaway owners into sexual activity.

I wish the people blaming these young girl victims and their carers/families would realise they are assisting in focusing away from the real causes of this form of child abuse!

These men see white girls as cheap, worthless and easy prey. Our sexualised culture and porn confirms their own misogyny.

Muslim girls from their own culture, however, have to remain virgins until their wedding night. The men respect this. It could lead to an honour killing if they're not. These girls are kept at home until one day they're taken out of school and shipped off to Pakistan/wherever to be married to a stranger.

The judge said these girls were targeted because they did not belong to the men's community or religion. Given that he heard every shred of evidence I think it's fair to say that race played a part in this crime. I think that if everybody could come to terms with this the risk of it happening again will be reduced.

ReallyTired Wed 09-May-12 12:16:24

I do understand and I don't believe its so easy for them to go to a nightclub and pull like white men do.

yes it is though. They go clubbing to niche, they pull, as an Asian teenager who went clubbing, there were a lot of muslim guys in clubs who pulled, and these same guys were involved in grooming with younger girls as well. My brother goes clubbing, my DH before marriage went clubbing. This is reality i am talking about, not some theoretical concept.