To be infuriated with Keith Vaz on the grooming of girls by Asian men

[mumzy]

Just heard Keith Vaz on Today discussing this and being in total denial about the reality that in northern british cities and towns the street grooming of girls is disproportionatly done by Asian men and the majority of victims are white girls. His stance is it's the BNP making it out to be Asian men abusing white girls rather than accept the figues which show this crime is disproprtinately being committed by Asian men. Until those in positions ie police, social services, child protection stop being in denial this sort of thing will continue as these men will think no one will stop them.This has being going on for decades, I went to school in a northern city 20 years ago and knew of girls from chaotic backgrounds skipping classes to meet up with there much older and often married Asian boyfriends and often they'd be asked to bring a friend along for their mates. They'd be plied with alcohol and inevitably end up having sex some got pregnant. Is this a racist problem ? I think so and I speak as some one who is British but not white. There will always be people from every race who will think people of other races are inferior to them and will not flinch from abusing those who are not the same race as them. I also don't agree with the opinion of some such as Lee Jasper who say black people can't be racist I've had racist abuse during my lifetime from people who are white, black and other ethnicities. People like Keith Vaz who automatically blame the BNP do a lot of harm as it stops people discussing this publically in case they are seen as racist. This means in reality it doesn't get discussed rationally and openly so the abuse continues and the issue goes underground fuelling the support for extremist groups such as the BNP.

Katie - how did it happen? I'm not asking for painful details, but I have a DD, I worry desperately about this, and I think the best way to protect against these things is to know what to watch out for. The whole issue is swept under the carpet (irrespective of what race the people are) and getting information out to people is the only way to prevent it.

One of the care workers in the case was interviewed and he said (and I'm paraphrasing) that he couldn't physically restrain the girls from going out, even though he knew what was happening. He could only restrain them if there was a significant risk of physical injury (I know they were being raped but bureaucracy is crazy) and all he could do was plead with them not to go out.

This doesn't excuse / explain why it wasn't being raised as an issue and dealt with at a higher level involving the police, changing guidelines, helping the children to get out of it.

Katie, I know this isn't your situation and I'm glad your daughter is OK now. I'm terrified of it happening to my daughter, I don't know what I'd do.

I think its sad that the BNP have got involved
The go
obshite that is Nick Griffen nearly got the case thrown out apparently!

The twat.

It's sad the BNP are involved - but I think it's sadder that media/politicians/authority figures have been ignoring it for yours, and giving it to the BNP on a plate. They've been talking about it for years, and they've been one of the the only ones. Imagine if you're in a community where you know this is happening, and the only people who are listening to you are the BNP and the EDL. This is the best recruiting tool they could have had.

ReallyTired said:

"I think its sad that the BNP have got involved and it made hard to discuss a difficult issue. To stamp out this abuse police need the cooperation of asian communities. The majority of asian men do not behave like thiis."

Of course not, since Asian covers not only the Indian subcontinent but Siberia, China, Japan etc.

We're talking here about Muslim men. Of course, the majority of Muslim man don't behave like that either; however it does seem to be a specifically muslim thing at the moment. This is not to deny that there are women abusers in all sections of the community. I just don't see gangs of marauding presbyterians rampaging around at the moment - nor, Sikhs, Hindus etc.

I don't think the involvement of the BNP should inhibit us from discussing this openly. Otherwise we're effectively allowing the BNP to determine the bounds of debate. The BNP don't own this issue.

It seeme to me that it is the failure of mainstream political parties, and the squeamishness of the mainstream media, to allow open and frank discussion on legitimate (if uncomfortable) issues of public concern, that drives some people towards the BNP. If the "respectable" parties don't address questions of genuine concern they should not be too surprised of people start to turn to non-respectable ones.

bigjoent There does seem to be a massive failure of care for children in the care system-I know this wasn't your DDs case Katie, I'm so relieved that you've got through it all.

There was a thread recently about foster children having their allowances paid directly to them- , I wouldn't give DCs wads of cash for their own protection.

DD made a new friend who is a lovely girl but lived close by to one of the abusers. Through this friendship she met the groomers who professed initially to being her boyfriend (stop was immediately put to this). This group freely offered drugs, alcohol, a free house to party in and eventually sex.

I only found out the extent when the school contacted me to ask why DD had not been in school for a week... The girls were being dropped off at school by their parents and promptly collected by the groomers 5 mins later, returning home as normal. This escalated to DD jumping out of windows, running away, brazenly walking out of school, stealing, lying continuously. It went on for about a year. We were completely powerless but kept on fighting. At one point we were prepared to send her to boarding school to get her out of the area.

We forced SS involvement, they appeared, took one look at our family set-up and declared themselves all out of ideas. We reported her missing to the police every single time she failed to come home from school, resulting in our house being searched every night. We forced SS to take her into care over one weekend after she had stolen money from her blind grandmother. We pressed charges against her for this too. We worked with the school, dropping her early and handing her over to guidance, collecting her early after school at every day. We changed schools, she absconded again on the seond day...
We got DD involved with a local charity SafeSpace who were brilliant. We talked and talked and talked....

The police were useless, the groomers were warned but not charged.

The only thing that worked was DD growing up and realising that her/their behaviour was disgusting. I thank God that she did.

Interestingly I've been reading about this case online,this morning, on several newspapers and bbc news and none have allowed readers to register their comments. It feels like this subject will be swept under the carpet by the authorities because it raises too many explosive issues about our society including migrants and immigration, liberalism, sexualized media, state of the family, misgoyny, our attitudes to children, communities, the role of the police, social services, human rights etc etc. So young girls will continue to be the victims and I'm not under any illusions it's just vulnerable white girls, anyone with a daughter who enjoys going shopping with their friends on a Saturday down their local high street needs to aware that their child could easily be groomed by such men.

jeez katie that's horrendous. It sounds as if you only got through it by talking and supporting her. Bloody useless SS and police. Your daughter should definitely do Social Work, they definitely need people who have a clue, rather than the soppy liberals who do it now (speaking as a dripping wet liberal myself).

mumzy it's not just 'such men' in concentrating on the fact that in this case and, yes many others it was Pakistani Muslims we'll ignore the others.

Methe Wed 09-May-12 10:33:53
Its not only in northern towns. It was going on in london 10 years ago and there is a huge operation in oxford at the moment.

Yes it was most definitely going on in London ten years ago, and not just against white girls, any girl that was vulnerable, seemed needy, even muslim girls in good unis with good families, if they sensed some neediness or vulnerability,etc it occurred. It is not big secret.

Grooming is a powerful tool, katie.
I don't know why there are not stronger action taken against the harbouring of a minor. Do we need the law strengthened on this?

ReallyTired Wed 09-May-12 11:12:03
I think there is a tendency for human beings to behave disgracefully towards people who are different. Racism/ tribalism is an issue in every group of human beings on the planet. What is socially acceptable in one culture is different to another culture. I think that white men are able to have sex before marriage more openly so don't resort to crime to get their nookie. Or they look for vunerable girls in different ways. Certainly there are plenty of white sex offenders.

I think its sad that the BNP have got involved and it made hard to discuss a difficult issue. To stamp out this abuse police need the cooperation of asian communities. The majority of asian men do not behave like thiis.

I think you lack understanding, these men are westernised. They go clubbing, they go to squat parties and raves, they have just as much access to sex before marriage and practice it within relationships before marriage.

Thank you for explaining, that does sound horrific. It's hard for me as I was a total tearaway as a teenager - it's only luck I didn't fall into a bad crowd, the people I hung out with were generally quite good. I can see exactly how it could happen and I worry for DD in the future. Am glad your DD is OK now, and you're an incredibly strong mum for helping her through it.

My worry is that parents (like we did) truly believe that this could never happen to them. Not nice, middle class, happy, close families like ours....

It is all to common to make oneself feel better, more secure by classifying the girls/abusers/areas/ethnicity as "problems".

It is a false premise. I know that now and so should everyone else.

Katie what you've just said chimes on so many levels from my classmates' experiences and what I've read and heard. Two of my classmates would regularly skip classes to meet their "boyfriends" who would be waiting in their cars at the back of the school for them. They would come back reeking of alcohol and fags boasting about having sex in the back of the car. This was in the late 80s and as far as I knew the school did nothing. How many more generations of girls need to be abused for the people in positions of power to get a grip on the problem and stop pandering to the communities which shield these monsters.

Yes the law needs to be imposed not changed. In our case it was not, the Police were initially very concerned but grew less so once our DD was so obviously corrupted. It was very much a case of "Nothing we can do if the men and your DD say there is no sexual activity, she's 14 now ......"

And we DID make a fuss. A huge one.

helpyourself, I agree a massive failure, I was trying to point out that the people closest to the children didn't have a lot to help them or the children and that the blame lies higher up.

I want an inquiry into why it wasn't stopped sooner, there were a number of chances to do so, it seems to be happening in a number of places - does anyone talk to eachother and put things together. This shouldn't happen again, I mean the failure of the authorities - care system, police etc to protect young girls.

I agree with a number of posters, the debate needs to be had, and NOT on the BNPs terms, they mustn't be allowed to set the agenda.

And that Lovepjs, is another reason Vaz is right and that concentrating on these mens' ethnicity is dangerous.

IME my personal experience, gangs which may have not been highlighted by the media yet,

In London, there are Hindu and Sikh boys in these gangs as well.

What is the different love between defining them as Asian which offends you, or defining them as Muslim which offends Indian Muslims? lol

The majority of Muslims wouldnt do this either, and by calling the offenders Muslim makes Muslims thinks that when people see their religion they will assume that their DHs are the same as these pervs.

No one wants to be assosciated with them.

Also what is all this stuff about asian girls not going clubbing etc, have you been to r &b and hip hop clubs? filled with asian girls dressed like normal girls going clubbing, it is a myth that asian girls dont go clubbing. As a teenager me and my friends all did, and our parents let us.

Perhaps we should start calling them 'mostly muslims from the Mirpur region of Pakistan' then we could ask Vaz to resign.

It seems pretty obvious that some types of crimes are more common amongst certain demographics. For example, football hooliganism was (and is) mainly the preserve of young white men. It's really not demonising young white men to point that out. After all, we know that while most football hooligans are young white men, most young white men aren't football hooligans.

So if the crime of grooming young vulnerable girls for sex is more common amongst certain communities, then that needs to be addressed.

However, the thing that upsets me most about this is that really it's about how vulnerable young girls (and boys to a certain extent) in care are treated in our society. It seems to me they are easily exploited by adults, and they are often disbelieved by the authorities, making them even more vulnerable.

It's also the case, of course, that women who complain about rape are very often disbelieved. I can't help thinking that if these girls had been raped by white men, some of those who are now making racist comments about Asian men, would actually be saying things like, "Well, they were probably asking for it," which seems to be the standard response, unfortunately, to women's complaints of rape. It's the opportunity to make racist judgements that has suddenly made a load of people take the problem seriously.

I can't understand why children under 16, in care are allowed to go out at nights surely most of these children are in care because they are beyond the control of their parents. is there any point in putting these children into care if society can't care or control them any better than their parents?

I wish people would stop calling them Asian they are Pakistani or afghan. I am Indian and get so pissed off when I'm grouped together with Muslims

I can underrstand that. But please understand this. In these northern towns 'asian' = Pakistani / Bangladeshi and muslim. I know this is incorrect but the reality is that in some towns in northern England have a white area and an 'asian' area.

There is not another group. In London there are numerous ethnicities and religeons so the word isn't used in the same way, it is nonsensicle but where you have just two groups that do not mix then words have a different meaning.

In NI I'm sure being Catholic or Protestant doesn't mean everyone there believes in God. If you are an atheist you will still be either Catholic or Protestant because of culture.

When I lived in London I had boyfriends (only one at a time) who were not white. I had no problems thinking they didn't value me or that anyone would have an opinion about it.

In the town my parents live in, if I walked down the street with someone who was percieved as 'asian' and male there would be assumptions made about both of us and both white and 'asian' communities would probably condem us.