to have asked these people to sit somewhere else?

[musicposy]

I honestly don't know if I was or not, so any opinions welcomed, and I will suck it up if I was

I work for a music examining board and we are at the time when I have to collate all the exam entries. It's part time, seasonal work, but when it comes in, it is hours of work to a very tight deadline.

I took the DDs up ice skating this morning. The really needed not to miss it as DD2 has a couple of competitions coming up. But I really needed to work. So I sat in the leisure centre coffee shop with a coffee at a big table, spread out all my paperwork and got on with it. It was pretty early morning so the place was virtually deserted, masses of empty tables and just a handful of other people there.

Halfway through some complicated adding up (it's literally thousands of numbers) a lady came and sat at my table, opposite me. I thought it was strange because mine was one of the only occupied tables and most people choose a vacant one. She kept making sniffing and sighing noises. Under normal circumstances I might have smiled or asked if she was OK, but I was trying to get this work done.

After a while she got up, got a drink of water, sat down, shuffled some of my papers over and put the drink down. She started the noises again, trying to get my attention, I think, and I did start to think at this point that she might have some sort of special needs, though you wouldn't have known looking at her. I just completely lost concentration in my adding.

About 5 minutes later a man who obviously had Downs Syndrome came over with a coffee on a tray. He said a cheery hello to me and proceeded to also sit down, putting the tray on my paperwork.

At this point I said very nicely "I'm really sorry, but would it be OK if you sat at a different table? I am really very busy."

They looked terribly hurt and got up. A lady a few tables over I then noticed was obviously looking after a whole group of people with learning difficulties. She said "sit here, you're welcome at this table, " and glared at me like you wouldn't believe. Then she sat and shot me looks for the next half hour.

I felt rotten afterwards. I know that in a different cicumstance that could be me or a family member. I really hadn't meant to upset them. But on the other hand, I was at one of the only occupied tables, I asked very nicely, and I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect to be left in peace when the place was so quiet.

So, was I being unreasonable? Did I deserve the glares?

But 2shoes, if she had got up and moved away, how hurt would they have been then? Surely it would have been the same if she asked them if they could have used a different table or got up herself? We may think that getting up would be the better option, but for an adult with LD that's still someone basically stating that they don't want you to sit next to them.

Which is why the carer has the responsibility to teach them what is and what is not appropriate in social situations, so that incidents like this are prevented and adults with LD realise that it's not a personal insult, just someone needing their own space and whilst there are plenty of other empty tables around, it is polite for them to give others their own space.

YANBU to politely ask someone to move out of your personal space, disabled or not. I work with disabled people - they are PEOPLE after all, and can be treated as you'd treat anyone else, ie respectfully but capable of dealing with a minor request! I sometimes politely have to ask a disabled person to leave me alone as I have to get on. They can handle it!

YABU to expect the peace and quiet of an office at a public place.

It was me silver.
But I also said I would have moved anyway because 'i personally' would consider it rude to ask others to move.
And if I mooched I would say/gesture/explain why -depending on who sat with me.
If it was not rude to say 'excuse me, could you sit somewhere else as I have lots to do' I am not sure why 'excuse me, I am just going to move somewhere a little quieter/with more room as I have lots to do'

I don't think the OP did anything terrible but I would have just handled it a bit differently.

But I have just come home having been told off in a cafe so what do I know

Sorry...lots of mistakes in there....

Completely agree that the people with learning difficulties might not have understood the social norm that you don't share someone else's table if there are others that are free.

It is the support worker's job to gently steer their 'charges' into what are socially acceptable forms of behaviour. She was at fault here, not you or the people who sat with you.

I am saddened by the sentiment that support work is such a low status job that it only attracts the incompetent. Is that really how caring roles are perceived? I give the ultimate respect to those who do such challenging work that I would simply be unable to do, it says something about society that not everybody does.

It's the shock of having a fight in a cafe whilst on a fight in a cafe thread..

ps. I am aware that 'charges' is probably the wrong word - I'm not sure what the right one is, so I apologise in advance if I have offended anyone.

silverthread - I apologise as I am one of the people turning it into a SN one. Sorry!!!

However it IS relevant. I agree that the OP did not ask them to leave because they had SN and she had every right to ask. I think what she said was fine. BUT the act of chosing to sit on 'a stranger's table' rather than any of the empty tables IS something those with some SN are more likely to do. I know if unchecked two of my adult children would always chose to sit near/next to their 'new friend' - even if the person did not speak or acknowledge them they would still consider them a friend. It's not that they are being rude or being badly bought up, but simply are unable to recognise the conventions that society expects and have no understanding of personal space. You can have a mile long bench with one person sitting on it and my adult children would always chose to sit next to, and probably very close to, that person.

I realise I am probably repeating myself - so sorry. It's been many years trying to get my head around things like this, so I totally understand it is a difficult concept if you are unfamiliar.

Can I just make clear I don't think the OP did anything wrong, other than expecting to be able to do complicated work uninterrupted in a public space (she agreed with that last night btw).

I'm just objecting to all this talk of 'rudeness' (can you be rude without intent?), 'pestering' (they weren't - they said hello, and shuffled some papers that they didn't understand were Very Important Work Papers, that's hardly 'pestering'. I also suspect the carer made a genuine mistake in that she didn't spot the OP was doing some Very Important Work and doesn't really need to be hung drawn and quartered for it. Yes she was defensive, but to be frank it's hard not to be given the responses day to day responses from the public.

maddening that made me laugh! I am the same in the car park "all that bloody space and they have to park right there !!"

CakeMeIAmYours - you made me LOL (thanks) for apologising for using the word 'charges'. I have three adult children with LD, children without difficulties and foster children with a multitude of difficulties....and I have no clue what word to use either! It's been a heavy thread - so thanks!

Cornishsue - I'd be happy if your adult children - or any of the children mentioned on here - came and sat with me and wanted to be my friend - I'd be flattered. I don't work, so wouldn't be working, like the OP, but would put down my book/knitting and have a conversation with them.

Saintly - I don't think the OP expected (as in, considered it her right) to be able to work in a public place undisturbed - I think she expected (as in, she knew that cafe was likely to be empty or nearly empty at that time of day) so assumed it would be quiet enough for her to work in. Two different meanings of the word 'expect' - one involving entitlement, the other not - I suspect the OP had the second meaning in mind.

Bugger - italicisation fail - sorry.

argh, grr - wrote a long reply, and MN was down...

pagwatch - hope you didn't break any social conventions

cornishsue: I know it is hard. but I don't think the OP did anythign wrong in asking the people to move. I can see that others might have handled it differently, but that is just a difference, not a right/wrong situation.

saintly: agree. overall, there was nothing unreasonable about anyone's actions (the sitting, or the asking). there were a couple of minor bits wrong - the moving of papers etc, but nothing huge, and the OP was not unduly stressy about it.

QuintisentialShadows I did think there probably weren't that many ice rinks in leisure centres in the country and I would probably out myself! But I probably post far too many details on here anyway and I don't namechange - I always assume I'm too boring for it to matter much!

"Maybe it would have been better if you'd chatted for five mins, excused yourself and moved off yourself."

Hullygully I've been thinking about what I would do another time and I think this is it. I think if I could go back, I would have put away my work, chatted for a few minutes, and then said I had to go down to the rink. I lost my train of thought anyway so the outcome would have been the same, but with less hurt feelings.

Part of the problem which also got me thinking was that the first lady obviously had a disability but you wouldn't have known by looking at her. So to start with I just thought she was being weird. This must be a huge problem for carers of people with hidden disabilities. So it was only when the second man joined her it all really clicked for me. Thumbwitch your post about it looking as though I objected to people with DS brought really took me aback because I never thought of that - and of course, to their carer that's probably exactly what it looked like. No wonder she gave me catsbum!

The rest of the discussion about personal space etc, I think is a very interesting one.

Er SDTG I did talk about this with the OP last night and we came to the same conclusion. Or at least she agreed with my experiences. It is pointless trying to be able to do complicated work in public as someone going about their daily business always interrupts. Whether they have LD's or not. And you're better of buying a paper and not getting irritated with people who are just doing their own thing.

I'm not sure why you're leaping to her defence when she agreed with me last night (and said she'd added the figures up incorrectly anyway and had to do it again).

I wasn't as much leaping to her defence as simply pointing out that there are two possible meanings for 'expecting' to be able to work in the cafe.

I think on balance the OP was rude.

I would go out of my way to not offend another person. In this situation I might assume that the people wanting to sit at the table were maybe needy, vulnerable, unsure of social etiquette or having a special need which meant they were unable to gauge what was appropriate.

I would have gathered my papers and said "I'm so sorry I hope you don't mind I'm taking up so much of this table I'm going to move. I have lots of work to complete and I don't want to get in your way". Cue friendly smile.

It's not your table so why get territorial?

Ah cross posted with musicposy.

Musicposy - yep the 'looking normal' thing can be problematic. my son as you can see looks very 'normal', but can't talk at all and needs 1:1 when out and about. Even when I think he is making his disability very obvious people still react as if he is being naughty (I have little patience for that tbh and have found that an explanation does little anyway - it's as if because he 'looks' normal he's expected to behave entirely normally.

Well having tried to work in public spaces I would say it's best to 'hope' to get some work done but to 'expect' to be interrupted.

cornishsue, yes sitting on a table with someone else is exactly what people with LD would do, which is why they had a carer with them. Someone whose job it is to teach them social norms and etiquette, which is why they were probably in the cafe in the first place, so they can learn how to order, how to pay for things and how to behave in a cafe environment.

She failed to do her job. That is not a condemnation of all carers, you get good and bad just like you do in any profession (and I used to be a carer myself), but this particular carer failed to respond to that incident correctly and now she has left those adults under the impression that because they have LD they are not welcome to sit with other people, which is completely inaccurate.

I work with people with disabilities and special needs so maybe I'm always on the lookout.

OP your last post shows how reasonable you are. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We on MN are all able to think through a scenario in our own time and post a response - real life isn't like that and we make rash decisions all the time

Just to clarify: I don't think adults with SN are 'like children'. What some of them may have in common with children is an inability to understand social norms and recognise others' signals of displeasure or reluctance to engage.
And I do not think anyone should have to just put up with interruptions from strangers, whether that's adults, DC, NT or SN, or interact in any way with other people if they don't want to.

Oh i hate this - bloody people with their "important" work in cafes. Cafes are social places where people drink coffee, eat food and ENJOY THEMSELVES. If you want to work in a public place and have peace and quiet might i suggest using the library!!! We have this whenever i take my DD to one of her after school clubs - there is a cafe downstairs and all the mums congregate - you will often have peole on their lap tops or "working" huffing and puffing because ther is a lot of noise - suck it up, or do your work at home

Saying that DP and i were having a "meeting" in a cafe the other morning, we had a job to price up and thought it might be nice to do it over coffee - DP went and sat by the "mothers meeting" lots of mums, toddlers and babies, i did find myself being one of those huffy people because i just could not think straight because i was trying to earwig the conversations the mums were having I did hopefully conceal my huffiness though

With regards to why the lady sat there - perhaps it was the table her son likes to sit at. I remember once being mortified on the bus once when there was a young lad who was clearly wanting the front seat at the same time as my DD.Cue them getting to the seat at the same time (if my memory serves me right - something like that) He must have been about 17 anyway, he made some comment or other so i just told my DD to move and sit on another seat. I thoght, how rude, then it became apparent he might have had some special needs, his mum apologised because he kept saying things about my DD (worm - in horrid henry stylee). She was so embarrased, i tried to laugh it off with her but didn't know how to handle it really, the poor mum was obviously at the end of her tether that day. She was nice but i could tell she just wanted me to fuck the fuck off actually