to have asked these people to sit somewhere else?

[musicposy]

I honestly don't know if I was or not, so any opinions welcomed, and I will suck it up if I was

I work for a music examining board and we are at the time when I have to collate all the exam entries. It's part time, seasonal work, but when it comes in, it is hours of work to a very tight deadline.

I took the DDs up ice skating this morning. The really needed not to miss it as DD2 has a couple of competitions coming up. But I really needed to work. So I sat in the leisure centre coffee shop with a coffee at a big table, spread out all my paperwork and got on with it. It was pretty early morning so the place was virtually deserted, masses of empty tables and just a handful of other people there.

Halfway through some complicated adding up (it's literally thousands of numbers) a lady came and sat at my table, opposite me. I thought it was strange because mine was one of the only occupied tables and most people choose a vacant one. She kept making sniffing and sighing noises. Under normal circumstances I might have smiled or asked if she was OK, but I was trying to get this work done.

After a while she got up, got a drink of water, sat down, shuffled some of my papers over and put the drink down. She started the noises again, trying to get my attention, I think, and I did start to think at this point that she might have some sort of special needs, though you wouldn't have known looking at her. I just completely lost concentration in my adding.

About 5 minutes later a man who obviously had Downs Syndrome came over with a coffee on a tray. He said a cheery hello to me and proceeded to also sit down, putting the tray on my paperwork.

At this point I said very nicely "I'm really sorry, but would it be OK if you sat at a different table? I am really very busy."

They looked terribly hurt and got up. A lady a few tables over I then noticed was obviously looking after a whole group of people with learning difficulties. She said "sit here, you're welcome at this table, " and glared at me like you wouldn't believe. Then she sat and shot me looks for the next half hour.

I felt rotten afterwards. I know that in a different cicumstance that could be me or a family member. I really hadn't meant to upset them. But on the other hand, I was at one of the only occupied tables, I asked very nicely, and I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect to be left in peace when the place was so quiet.

So, was I being unreasonable? Did I deserve the glares?

sorry highly relevant, not appropriate.

Yes sorry maybe that was rude but stating "I can show you my bruises" to prove how wonderful I am doesn't really wash with me. Yes she does it for a job, but it's her choice to be there and do that job and get paid for it.
The carers should have considered moving the adults but maybe it was a "let's see what choices they make and then discuss decisions afterwards". How do you explain to someone that sitting on an empty chair at a table with a friendly looking woman is rude? My dd would ask why and want to know the whole reasoning behide it. Sometimes its easier for her to learn by practice that by me telling her.

When you buy a coffee at a cafe, you would normally be entitled to have the use of one chair and enough space to set your coffee down. The OP says that it was a big table and that all her paperwork was spread out on it.

You might want other people not to use the remaining chairs and the space not occupied by the coffee but you have no real entitlement to that. The only paper shuffling was done by the woman who moved the papers out of the way so that she could put her own drink on the table.

Saintlyjimjams - I was responding to your post where you said, "...I disagree - because other than saying hello, they were just sat there...."

Lisad - where did Siddhartha say, "I can show you my bruises to show how wonderful I am"??

Grrr - should have been bolded - to show you how wonderful I am

ywnbu op, you didn't deserve a cats bum mouth either, you were polite and not rude.

There were plenty of other spaces available, no need for anyone to come and move your paperwork out of the way, if anyone had their heart set on that seat for whatever reason, they should of asked you if you minded etc.

lisad123 - 'My dd would ask why and want to know the whole reasoning behide it. Sometimes its easier for her to learn by practice that by me telling her.'

Isn't that fobbing it off onto a stranger?
Aren't you worried what that stranger's reaction might be?

No i would never put her in a unsafe position, what kind of mum do you think I am! and no I'm not talking about fobbing her off on strangers either, but sometimes practice of things is better than describing. I'm not talking about stuff that impacts on others. But more like, let her queue at shops and see if she makes the right decision on where to stand, if she would say excuse me if someone was in her way, think about choices of where to sit in a cafe, how to answer the phone ect ect.

Er, gosh, sorry, didn't mean to upset you.

I'm just trying to understand.

Coppertop - even if there were NO other seats/tables available, it is still polite/the social norm, to ask if the person already at the table minds you joining them. Of course you have the right to sit there without asking - but it is polite to ask.

No-one has to be polite or use good manners in public - but most people do, because manners are the lubricant that ease social interactions and make life more pleasant for all concerned.

Yes it is polite but this was not a normal social situation. I think the poster who said that they probably normally sit there was right. They would have had a routine and that table the OP sat at would have been 'theirs'.

It was the carer's duty to explain to them what happens if someone else is sat at 'your' table, i.e. you find another table or you ask the person sat there if they minded you joining them. Adults with special needs also have to be taught how to socially interact at times. The carer did not do that.

When the OP asked them politely if they would mind moving, the carer should, at that point, taken the opportunity to intervene and tell the adults about people's space. She didn't. She chose to make the OP feel uncomfortable instead.

Some carers, some parents, expect other people to bend over backwards to provide for their charges. Unfortunately that is not how real life works and she was doing those adults no favours whatsoever in behaving like that.

If anyone was in the wrong here, it was the carer.

SDTG - You could equally argue that it's not polite to take up an entire table when you are alone and only have a coffee.

You could also argue that it's not polite to ask someone to move away from a chair that they have every right to sit in.

Ermmmm - when the OP went into the cafe, there were only a handful of other people there, coppertop - should she have gone and sat with them, because she 'only' had a coffee, instead of sitting at an empty table?? When there are lots of empty tables, then it is not rude to take up a whole one, with just a coffee, imo.

It's not unreasonable to use a whole table when there are plenty of other vacant tables though, first come first served, everyone spreads out if there is space, and most reasonable people gather things up when places get busy.

There were plenty of other spaces available, op was there first, i wouldn't think it rude for her to stay seated tbh, she was polite with her request.

It's not rude. I'm struggling to see how anyone can find it rude.

"Ermmmm - when the OP went into the cafe, there were only a handful of other people there, coppertop - should she have gone and sat with them, because she 'only' had a coffee, instead of sitting at an empty table??"

Nothing wrong with sitting at an empty table to drink her coffee. I do think that it's unreasonable though to think that using the table to spread papers over is more important than someone else using that same table to put their own coffee on. It's a cafe, not an office.

the op had no right to ask anyone to move.
the op was rude to ask them to move as she had no right to.
so yes she did deserve a glare from someone who might have been a carer(she doesn't know if it was or not)
"They looked terribly hurt and got up."

sorry doesn't sound like the op was that nice to them imo,
Have to say I hate threads like this, they are pointless and just add to the worry that families with members with LD's already have.

No 2shoes. I obviously read it very differently. The carer's job is to teach those adults how to handle themselves in social situations, I presume that's what the outing to the cafe is all about.

In normal social situations, people tend to sit at empty tables unless there are none, in which case they ask the person at the table if they would mind them sitting there. That is the accepted norm.

The OP did not want to engage in a conversation and neither did she have to. But if she had ignored them, would they not have been hurt? Was she compelled to talk to them just because they have special needs?

What should she have done then, in your opinion?

It would be unreasonable to think that having the whole table to spread her papers out on trumped someone else's right to use the same table to put their coffee on, IF there had been nowhere else for the other person to put their coffee, coppertop - but that wasn't the case here, was it.

TheRhubarb moved herself.
not hard really

2shoes - do you honestly think it is polite, reasonable or appropriate behaviour to sit at a table that is already occupied, when there are plenty of empty tables?? Do you think it is polite to put your tray down on someone else's belongings or to move someone else's belongings without asking them? Do you think it is polite to sit down at someone else's table without asking??

And surely the people would have been just as offended and hurt if she'd moved - and she'd have got the same catsbumface from the carer - so how would it have been any better???

I don't even like it when I am in an empty public toilets and someone goes in the one right next to mine - obviously wouldn't say anything or ask them to move but I do think'"there are 10 other empty cubicles why the one next to me" haha

yanbu - regardless of the status of the person you would think they would sit at another empty table if there were some available.

I don't think this should be turned into a thread about LDs as such.

I have no reason (given what the OP put in her origianl post, or in subsequent answers) to suspect that she asked the people to move becuase they had LDs.

she asked them, nicely, to move because she was busy, and did not want ot be interrupted (and there was plenty of other space in the cafe)

I don't htink it is too much to ask, in a place where there are enough free tables and lots of space for everyone (this was not peak times, and the place was virtually empty) to be left in peace (to do whatever you want to do - work, read a trashy magazine, watch the people on the ice, grab a quick snooze since it was so early).

the OP would have been unreasonable if she had been huffy about it; if she had expected a divine right to never be interrupted at all while doing important work; if she had been snappy and short with the people. but she wasn't, didn't, and wasn't.

I think someone suggested earlier that if it had been 2 burly blokes who sat down, the OP would probably not have asked. I can only try to imagine myself in that situaiton, and no, maybe I would not have asked 2 burly (possibly intimidating?) blokes to move. but I would almost certainly have done so myself. and therein lies the dilemma, really - if the OP had, instead of asking the people (nicely) to move, packed up and moved herself, I suspect she would still have got catsbum looks fromt he carer - who woudl have suspected she was moving away from those types of people, which would not have ben the case.

I try, whenever I take dd1 out, to make sure she does not encroach on other people's space. she does not know the rules, I am trying to teach them to her (as far as she can understand). I owuld not expect to sit where I pleased in an otherwise empty cafe, and expect the other person to shuffle up, move papers, whatever. and so I try to teach dd1 the same. if the place was crowded, then it is a different story, and it is unreasonable for anyone to take up so much space if other people need to sit down. but that was not the case here.

OP wasn't rude, neither were the adults who came to her table who clearly didn't deliberately invade her personal space. I have nothing but sympathy for parents whose children have SN and might feel discriminated against, but i really don't think that was the case here.