to have asked these people to sit somewhere else?

[musicposy]

I honestly don't know if I was or not, so any opinions welcomed, and I will suck it up if I was

I work for a music examining board and we are at the time when I have to collate all the exam entries. It's part time, seasonal work, but when it comes in, it is hours of work to a very tight deadline.

I took the DDs up ice skating this morning. The really needed not to miss it as DD2 has a couple of competitions coming up. But I really needed to work. So I sat in the leisure centre coffee shop with a coffee at a big table, spread out all my paperwork and got on with it. It was pretty early morning so the place was virtually deserted, masses of empty tables and just a handful of other people there.

Halfway through some complicated adding up (it's literally thousands of numbers) a lady came and sat at my table, opposite me. I thought it was strange because mine was one of the only occupied tables and most people choose a vacant one. She kept making sniffing and sighing noises. Under normal circumstances I might have smiled or asked if she was OK, but I was trying to get this work done.

After a while she got up, got a drink of water, sat down, shuffled some of my papers over and put the drink down. She started the noises again, trying to get my attention, I think, and I did start to think at this point that she might have some sort of special needs, though you wouldn't have known looking at her. I just completely lost concentration in my adding.

About 5 minutes later a man who obviously had Downs Syndrome came over with a coffee on a tray. He said a cheery hello to me and proceeded to also sit down, putting the tray on my paperwork.

At this point I said very nicely "I'm really sorry, but would it be OK if you sat at a different table? I am really very busy."

They looked terribly hurt and got up. A lady a few tables over I then noticed was obviously looking after a whole group of people with learning difficulties. She said "sit here, you're welcome at this table, " and glared at me like you wouldn't believe. Then she sat and shot me looks for the next half hour.

I felt rotten afterwards. I know that in a different cicumstance that could be me or a family member. I really hadn't meant to upset them. But on the other hand, I was at one of the only occupied tables, I asked very nicely, and I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect to be left in peace when the place was so quiet.

So, was I being unreasonable? Did I deserve the glares?

Oh and being rude involves a shared understanding of the concept, manners are in real terms a contract- if one person doesn't understand the deal then it is not truly rude.

And a 'social transaction' is only rude if both parties buy into it.

We extend (I hope) that understanding to people from other cultures and now need to learn to extend it the same way to those whose understanding is impaired by other causes.

I, for example, cannot always speak in a busy place or make eye contact. Am I rude? No I don't think so, I'd rather like to be able to do it but am unable. yet if someone says Hi to me and I fail to respond they may think that I have zero manners, but am I truly being rude or just exhibiting a behaviour common in someone with suspected AS?

absolutely, peachy

hully - I think it is a social convention (in the UK anyway) to spread out. But I think the rule is that in a public space you can sit where you like iyswim.

It's like queuing isn't it? My son used to not be able to queue at all (he would scream and hit his head). Now he can, but he likes to wait to the side towards the front. I let him do that and stand in the correct place and wait our turn. He doesn't push in, he doesn't engage anyone in the queue, he doesn't prevent anyone getting to the front, he just stands in slightly the wrong place doing absolutely no harm whatsoever.

There's about a 50:50 split between those who have no problem with him standing in the 'wrong' place in the queue and those who get terribly itchy about it.

most people would sit at an empty table, but that doesn't mean they have too

MooBaaWoofCheap - this is a difficult one because I know my adult children with SN they would not understand that their actions and behaviour is often deemed to be rude and intrusive. They would always sit on an occupied table - they would never think or desire to sit on a table alone. If anything they would think it was being rude not to interect with another customer. They would even feel sorry for the person who was sitting alone doing paperwork. They have not the capacity to understand that other people view their behaviour as anything other than friendly. As a parent I have, sadly, spent most of the last 15 years trying to teach my children NOT to be as friendly. I think that's so sad and sometimes think it is my children who have it right and the rest of us do not.

OP it seems what actually happened is that you sat at their table, - it appears that this was their routine and the first woman was sniffing and huffing because you'd got to their table when all the others were vacant.

I think I would have cottoned on to this at the point when the man came along with his tray and I probably would have offered to move.

But then I would be the one to move if I really didn't want to be sat next to a stranger on an almost empty train, - I wouldn't dream of asking them to move.

On the other hand I do think that the carer in this case could have been more on the ball and either politely approached you or directed the people in her care a bit better.

I don't think you deserved the glares though.

YA not being U at all.

In fact, you were doing a better job of supporting people with learning difficulties to integrate into society and utilise their community than so called Carer was doing.

I work with people with LD's and when supporting them out in the community, they are helped to understand, as much as they are able, that members of society are Strangers and not part of their circle of friends, a fact that is hard to grasp for some.

By politely showing them that you aren't 'Staff' or 'a friend' you are helping them to understand that there are people to whom they cannot use as carers.

Their Supporter should have explained to them that they can't just sit at a strangers table in a public place that they should consider other peoples privacy when out in the community.

Weirdly my psychology coursework project was on personal space while on public transport

Yes because Sid its just that easy

oh, lisad, I wish I could tell you about my evenings work last night. maybe i could just take a photo of the bite marks and bruises......

Its a hard job, but it has to be done.

Nobody, whatever their ability challenges or behavioural challenges has the right to infringe on another persons space, or person.

I've been thinking about this. I was working on a train when a young woman with sn sat opposite me and engaged me in converstaion (yes there were other empty seats). I stopped working, chatted pleasantly for 10 mins and then apologised and said I really had to work (I did). Just as I would have done with any other person. Though they would probs have got five not ten mins.

Maybe it would have been better if you'd chatted for five mins, excused yourself and moved off yourself.

Siddhartha - well done for the work you do because I can honestly say neither my DH and I, nor various professionals along the way, have been able to help my children (now adults) try and undertstand they should not interract with strangers by sitting at their table etc. They would consider they were bring rude by sitting on an empty table when there were other people about. I have found it one of the hardest aspects and congratulate you on the work you do. Any tips?

Hulltgully - and those ten minutes you had spent chatting would have absolutely have made my son's day. Wish there were others like you!!

I wish I could tell you about my evenings work last night. maybe i could just take a photo of the bite marks and bruises......

Please don't use your job as some sort of show of medals. It's really inappropriate. If you chose to work with people with CB's (not LD's necessarily, but CB's yes) you will end up bruised. If you can't cope with that, or get to old to be able to continue with the physical nature of the job then of course change roles, it's what people do. I have had conversations with several friends about exactly that. But please don't do the 'oh I get so many bruises from my job here have a look at them, what a wonderful person I am' routine. You can choose to leave at any time.

Hully - perfectly pleasant - it's the sort of balance I try to strike as well if someone (whoever) engages me in conversation when I don't want to be engaged.

Although if you are getting lots of bruises and bite marks then I would say something is seriously wrong with the management of CB's in your service and I hope something is being done about it.

Interestingly no-one has criticised Thistledew (posting at 00:38:31), for doing something pretty similar to what the OP did. In Thistledew's post, a young man with special needs was acting inappropriately in the circumstances - ie, on a train he was singing a fragment of a song and stamping his feet - and she politely asked him if he could stop, because she had a headache. Afterwards she was thanked by the man's support worker who had been sitting apart from him to allow him to gain some independance, and whose attitude was that it was helpful that a stranger had helped this lad to understand that his behaviour was not appropriate at that time and place.

As far as I can see, musicposy did something very similar - she was polite, and explained nicely why she wanted to have the table to herself. And in the UK, it is unusual to sit at a table that is already occupied if there are other tables free - and if there aren't other tables free, the polite thing to do is to ask the table's occupant if they mind you joining them. Since these are societal norms, isn't it better that people who don't know them are politely and kindly taught them? Perhaps, instead of having catsbumface, the lady with these two people could have said to them, 'It's not that the lady doesn't like you, but look, she's got lots of work that she's doing, and there are plenty of empty tables, so lets go and sit over here instead.'

No tips. Cornishsue. I don't know your children (sorry) but I have worked for lots of years in MH and with LD as Support staff and as an OT and I really love engaging with all sorts of people, I want to make the point that, whatever the abilities of the people who were being supported out, it wasn't them that were at 'fault'; the situation was in the 'Carer's' hands and maybe it hadn't been fully planned beforehand.

Saintly - with you on that one!!!

YANBU, I would have been super uncomfortable with people sitting at my table if there were other free tables. There are kind of "unspoken rules" about personal space in these situations.

Them having special needs explains why they might have sat at your table even though others were free. I don't see anything wrong with politely explaining to them that you are busy and they are interrupting you when there are other places for them to sit.

Sorry bruises and bite marks prove nothing to me other than your not quick enough!

YANBU.

Siddhartha - my children are now all adult, though I also now work as a foster carer.

It's interesting you say:
"Nobody, whatever their ability challenges or behavioural challenges has the right to infringe on another persons space, or person"
because as you know so much it down to perspection. As someone else said, there is no clear rule on this! LOL My sons/foster children would never be unkind or rude or unpleasant to anyone, though of course the other person may perceive their 'being friendly' as an infringment. It's very difficult to get it right because so often there is no middle ground. So the reality means that my children have to alter what is their natural behaviour in order not to offend or upset others. As a parent I know they cannot understand 'my' world, so what I have to do is to step inside theirs for a while..and sometimes that is actually a very pleasant place to be. When I step outside into the 'real' world again it is sometimes hard to continually remind them that every stranger not is their friend. But then again sometimes we met someone like Hully who can spare them ten minutes to chat, and that is so precious.

Guildford spectrum, I take.

the woman who was obviously in charge must have noticed you had work spread all over your table and she could have intervened when they sat down at your table and put their drinks on your papers, couldn't she? She could have just said the lady looks like she is hard at work, why don't we sit over here together?