to have asked these people to sit somewhere else?

[musicposy]

I honestly don't know if I was or not, so any opinions welcomed, and I will suck it up if I was

I work for a music examining board and we are at the time when I have to collate all the exam entries. It's part time, seasonal work, but when it comes in, it is hours of work to a very tight deadline.

I took the DDs up ice skating this morning. The really needed not to miss it as DD2 has a couple of competitions coming up. But I really needed to work. So I sat in the leisure centre coffee shop with a coffee at a big table, spread out all my paperwork and got on with it. It was pretty early morning so the place was virtually deserted, masses of empty tables and just a handful of other people there.

Halfway through some complicated adding up (it's literally thousands of numbers) a lady came and sat at my table, opposite me. I thought it was strange because mine was one of the only occupied tables and most people choose a vacant one. She kept making sniffing and sighing noises. Under normal circumstances I might have smiled or asked if she was OK, but I was trying to get this work done.

After a while she got up, got a drink of water, sat down, shuffled some of my papers over and put the drink down. She started the noises again, trying to get my attention, I think, and I did start to think at this point that she might have some sort of special needs, though you wouldn't have known looking at her. I just completely lost concentration in my adding.

About 5 minutes later a man who obviously had Downs Syndrome came over with a coffee on a tray. He said a cheery hello to me and proceeded to also sit down, putting the tray on my paperwork.

At this point I said very nicely "I'm really sorry, but would it be OK if you sat at a different table? I am really very busy."

They looked terribly hurt and got up. A lady a few tables over I then noticed was obviously looking after a whole group of people with learning difficulties. She said "sit here, you're welcome at this table, " and glared at me like you wouldn't believe. Then she sat and shot me looks for the next half hour.

I felt rotten afterwards. I know that in a different cicumstance that could be me or a family member. I really hadn't meant to upset them. But on the other hand, I was at one of the only occupied tables, I asked very nicely, and I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect to be left in peace when the place was so quiet.

So, was I being unreasonable? Did I deserve the glares?

Agree completely with cornishsue

The people I meet who are willing to engage with us (usually for seconds, sometimes minutes) from ds1's perspective - so they recognise that he has issues, chat to him or me, and move on smiling, really make our day.

He usually seems to make theirs as well.

cornish - I am staggered that it is really that rare...is it?

Where is the love?

Paiviaso - I think you have hit the nail on the head there when you say UNSPOKEN RULES. Many people with SN/autism find it difficult to understand SPOKEN rules and have no chance at UNSPOKEN ones. I can only speak for my adult children when I tell you the concept of personal space does not exist for them.

Imagine telling you, me or anyone without certain difficulties, that you should speak to everyone, regard everyone as your friend, sit and chat with anyone who is alone, act as if everyone is your oldest and closest friend. That would seem weird and maybe impossible for us to do. Well, if you turn that around that is exactly what I have to try to teach my children to do - go against what is their normaility and ask them to exhibit behaviour that does not natually come to them, when to their mind they are being 'conventional'.

UNSPOKEN RULES. Thanks, Paiviaso for summing things up so well!

cornish - I am staggered that it is really that rare...is it?

I find it's about 50:50 to be 'nice', rarer to be as kind for an extended period as you were. But unfortunately the 50% who are 'not nice' include a few who are downright abusive.

Are you ricky gervais?

Seriously, I'm with you. I used to find people would always beeline to the seat opposite me in a pretty empty train carriage, or on an empty beach set up their crap yards from our spot. My approach became: get up and move yourself.

Yes I agree with cornishsue as well. Ds1 does assume that everyone in the world is a nice friendly person. He can't speak, so he doesn't talk to them, but he does come from the angle of assuming they are his friend.

It's partly why I am when people are vile to him, although tbh he doesn't appear to notice (he knows he's different though, so I don't want to assume he doesn't notice, he might do).

I don't think YABU. You weren't rude at all and the only person who seened upset was the carer.

I think it's irrelevant whether this was work or not. Of course it isn't an office - but it would have been just as annoying if you were trying to read a paper or have a phone conversation.

Lisad123 - what a rude and unpleasant thing for you to say to someone who clearly does a very difficult and challenging job!!

I honestly think that it would have been seen as just as rude, or probably much ruder and more offensive, if musicposy had moved herself and her stuff to another table.

Also, given that so many people have said how it was a public space and the other people had every right to sit wherever they wanted (which I disagree with), and that no-one has a right to a table, I cannot see how OhChristFENTON can argue that it was clearly their table, and the OP should have moved. Quite apart from anything else, since musicposy is often at that icerink cafe at that time, she would have said if these were regulars at the cafe at that time, and would have known that they always had the same table, and would, presumeably, have avoided it.

Er most of the people I know who work with ds1 see their job as very rewarding and a lot of fun. If they don't, they generally leave. Honestly go and spend some time with people with learning disabilities. If the place is well run it will have one of the best atmospheres of any work place. IME anyway. And it really isn't on to parade bruises. I had someone do that at an annual review once (she only had the bruises because she was completely mismanaging the situation, repeatedly). Luckily another professional present told her she was out of order and it was inappropriate. If someone is ending up covered in bruises and bite marks there is something seriously wrong with their practice or with the management of the service.

I think OhChristFENTON was pointing out what might have happened from the perspective of the 2 people with LD's (she might be right - routines can be hard to alter).

FWIW I'd have been perfectly happy to chat to those people under different circumstances. I spent a long dog walk along the river accompanied by a young woman with SN who started chatting to me and who later insisted on showing me her zumba moves whilst I had to listen to the music on one of the earphones of her MP3 player while she wore the other one Any onlookers would have been very confused. BUT if I had been in a massive hurry I would have politely excused myself and hurried on.

Hully - yes it is very rare and it why I so genuinely and sincerely thank you for your small kindness that may have meant a HUGE amount. I am tryin to remember the last time we met a stranger who behaved as you did, and actually I can't think as it was too long ago.

I put it down to the fact that two of my adult children have no visable disabilities, and others view a nice pleasant looking young man who they gradually realise is behaving strangely, not looking them in the eye and being over-friendly and generous - 'what a wierdo, let's get out of here quick'. Life is actually easier for the one who DOES have physical indications of SN, because people expect a different behaviour pattern (even if that does make many on their guard) and they are more accepting of him. It's really sad to admit that but two of my children's greatest disability is looking 'normal'.

Hope we bump into you on a train sometimes!

You are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't. This is one of those situations that is so difficult to do the right thing in.

Not everyone who cares for or has children with special needs are right. My sister for instance, has a boy with Downs. She will literally push him into peoples faces and if they don't coo all over him she'll sulk. She once took him into our local park where we lived at the time, there were little racing cars that you put a token in and ride around on. The cars were for children under the age of 10. She put her son with Downs in one of the cars and then instructed her 12yo son to drive it with him - so two children in one tiny car and one of them was 12. The manager came rushing over and my sister had a huge stand up row about them discriminating against people with special needs.

He hadn't. All he saw were 2 children in one car, one of whom was too old to be there. She should have asked his permission first, as he rightly pointed out to her, but she was on a roll, accusing him of being a bigot. I was ashamed to be with her.

Another situation is when you see someone in a wheelchair coming up to shop doors. Instinct tells you to open the door for them. Most would thank you, but some would bite your head off because you have patronised them.

OP, I'm sure a lot of people are saying that you should have moved. Perhaps you should but then others would say that by doing that, you would have upset those who were sat there.

You acted politely. There is no reason why you shouldn't work in a public space. You were not taking up tables at a busy time. J K Rowling wrote her first book in a cafe. I should imagine it would have taken a damn sight longer if she had stopped to chat to all and sundry. And she might have even taken up a table at a busy time when people were wanting to eat.

There is no right way to act in this situation but plenty of wrong ways it seems. I don't see anything wrong in what you did but I'm way too reasonable for these kinds of threads

I think it's irrelevant whether this was work or not. Of course it isn't an office - but it would have been just as annoying if you were trying to read a paper or have a phone conversation.

I disagree - because other than saying hello, they were just sat there. They weren't actually talking to the OP. Apart from sniffing and sighing there didn't seem to be much noise going on. If you were on the phone or reading a paper they would have just been two people sat in a seat nearby at the same table. And whilst it might irritate it's not actually socially inappropriate in the way touching someone's work was.

I want to know if the cafe had become busy would the OP have been one of those annoying people who stays spread out on the whole table

if it had been me, with dd1 (only a child, so a slightly different scenario), I owuld have been more offended if the OP had gathered up all her htings and moved, rather than speaking to dd1.

dd1 would have made a beeline too- she really likes talking to people atm. if, as happened in the OP's situation, I had arrived after she had sat down, I would have gone over and prompted ehr to ask (because I know she wouldn't have done) 'excuse me, do you mind if I sit here?' (obviously, given that she owuld already have been talking to the other person, implicit in this question would be '...and chat')

thus giving the OP the perfect opening to say 'well, actually, I am a bit busy'

which dd1 would have not fully understood (she is only just learnign to manage social situations), and asked several questions about what the OP was busy doing, etc. I would have prompted dd1 to move (which might have taken a couple of minutes), and all would (hopefully) have been well.

I don't htink the OP was being unreasonale to nicely ask people to move. I don't think she is unreasonable to ask if she could have done things differently, either. it is one of those situations where there is no perfect solution, imo.

cornishsue, my brother has no physical indications of having learning difficulties either. You would not know until he started talking to you.

He's had no end of difficulties but he's also made many friends because of his generous and open nature. He talks loudly, he laughs loudly and his booming voice shouting "Look at that man with his hair! Who does he think he is? A PEACOCK????" But then most people start smiling with him, you can't not do. Luckily no-one has taken offence at his rather bold observations yet.

I have not read the whole thread but in answer to the OP - you were absolutely NOT being unreasonable in any way. nor were you rude.

You were busy but even if you were not, you do not have to engage with anyone you don't want to. I have days where I just don't want to engage anyone any more than is absolutely needed. We all have that right. You asked politely and were not rude.

Some support workers are terrible at their job. I know. I've been one (long time ago, capable and empathetic I hope) and experienced the opposite personally. Fortunately my current support workers are fabulous people excellent at their job.

Saintly - yes I do find it rare. As I said it is even rarer with the two who have no physical or obvious characteristics indicating they have problems. That's why it is so special when someone is 'nice'.

Oh yes, the abusive ones. Once overheard a 'very friendly and pleasant' neighbour of ours referring to us as 'The family of Nutters.'

I understand the dilemma of not knowing how much your son understands, even harder as your son has no speech. One of my children did not speak until halfway through the junior school years and now says as little as possible. Sometimes I look at him and realise he understands far more than professionals believed, and thinks the rest of us who chatter on unneccessarily are the fools! As I am now...when I really need to clean he bathroom!!

Saintly - message me if you'd like to talk (I would!)

Ds1 looks entirely 'normal' as well - so yes I know what you mean. I'm always surprised by people who think that a typical teenager would yelp or jump up and down shouting 'neeee' (I assume from the reaction they think he's being naughty, but anyhow).

I had a lesson in understanding when ds1 was 5. He was trying to tell me something and I didn't understand. I said 'oh ds1 it would be so much easier if you could talk' and he looked at me and howled and howled and howled . Now he has his talker (thank you mystery mumsnetter) I am learning just how much he does know :)

Will PM you now!

There will always be distractions when you are out in public, if you need to get work done in a public place you should wear an ipod to drown out background noise. I have had people park themselves right next to me (busy cafes/pub though) and have just nodded and carried on with what I was doing, which is really easy when you can't hear them.

I don't think ywbu considering there were so many free tables available, under those circumstances you do expect to be left alone. Maybe you could have handled it better by talking to them for a few minutes before explaining that you really needed to finish your work. You didn't deserve the glares though.

I have been injured by children/young adults with SN in my job. It wasn't because I wasn't quick enough. It was because I was trying to protect the child from harming themselves or any others in the class.

YANBU. One of those things. perhaps if they did have special needs and were in a group, the lady in charge could have asked them to sit at another table? presumably SHE could see that you were busy and didn't look ready for a chat????

Saintlyjimjams - they didn't just sit and sniff/sigh - they shuffled her papers around and the man put his tray down on her papers. That is intrusive behaviour.

I understand that some people with special needs don't know what is and is not appropriate behaviour in public - but does that mean they should be able to do whatever they want, however inappropriate?

Er yes I said that they shuffled the papers and that was inappropriate :confused:

I don't actually see sitting at the same table as being 'intrusive'. Unconventional? Certainly. But actually if someone is sitting there not conversing, not looking to be entertained , they're not actually doing anything wrong. The 'wrong' bit was shuffling the papers.

My point is that the fact the OP was trying to work was highly appropriate to the 'wrongness' of their actions. Had she been sat there reading a book and they had the other side of the table I am failing to see how it could have been 'equally annoying'.