To ask FIL and BIL not to bring meat to our BBQ...

[37jonsialex]

Ugh, i have a horrible feeling that i'm being ridiculously petty, but here we go...

We're having a family BBQ/ housewarming tomorrow. 8 of us in total (DP's parents, brothers, sisters and various partners) DP's family are all vegetarian, him and his sisters were brought up that way. By coincidence, i've been vegetarian since i was 9 and DS has been brought up as one too.

A few years ago BIL and FIL went over to the...ehem... dark side and started to eat meat again. I have no problem with this at all, their choice and none of us believe that everyone should be vegetarian.

Anyway, DP mentioned this morning that the B/FIL have insisted on bringing their own meat tomorrow. I was a bit shocked to be honest. I've been working really hard to work out a menu, so they weren't expected to provide anything. I'm always willing to except food based gifts, but i think that if you're taking food to someone's house, it should be something that everyone can eat, right? (for example, we're spending easter sunday with a friend that hates raisins, so i'm taking hot cross buns with other things in instead.)

Apart from that, our BBQ is brand new and we're the ones that will have to cook the meat and then clean off the BBQ and the plates...

Reading this back i can see that i sound like a bit of a nutter... but at the same time i think this is such an odd and disrespectful thing to do!

WIBU to ask them to leave the meat at home?

It is still a choice even if its for moral/ethical reasons its a choice all the same, thats what I mean about holier than thou, one choice [vegetarianism] seems to have the moral high ground according to some.

An ethical choice is qualitatively different from a preference.

And again, I've seen very little evidence on this thread to support the idea that vegetarians have a holier-than-thou attitude or try to take the moral high ground. I am more troubled by the attitudes expressed by some posts on here in support of eating meat at a vegetarian's BBQ.

Saggy, that's madness! Why would anyone object to a GF meal?
All our meals are GF... well, except for the ones with oats in (breakfast, usually)

can you really not see it?!

eating meat at a vegetarian's BBQ

but a vegetarian does what at a meat eaters BBQ?

They eat what suits their preference

Ethical choice/preference = no difference.

'can you really not see it?! '

I don't appreciate being 'grinned' at in that context, AmberLeaf; it's a bit patronising.

I don't really know how else to say that an ethical choice is not the same as a preference. And I know that some people are veggie because they simply don't like the taste of meat. But here we've been concerned with people who are veggie for ethical reasons. Anyway, here goes: I'm pretty confident that someone who's an ethically motivated vegetarian choosing an egg sandwich over a bacon one is not doing so for the same reason as a meat-eater who doesn't like bacon choosing an egg sandwich over a bacon one.

ethically motivated vegetarians may really like meat - but have chosen not to eat it because they don't agree with the way animals are kept/treated/slaughtered. Vegetarians who don't like the taste of meat are exercising a preference; ethically motivated vegetarians who like meat are making a conscious choice to go against their preference.

I don't take drink to the homes of my friends who don't drink. For me, that's an issue of basic good manners. I don't take to ther homes something they find ethically unacceptable and repellant. Similarly, would not take meat to the home of the Op. to d so would make my hostess uncomfortable and is therefore to be avoided.

Oh I do beg your pardon LadyClarice, I thought a smile would be better than coming across as arsey...obviously not, Il join you on that one.

Thumbwitch thats a good way of putting it.

I think that a vegetarian that is against animals as food for ethical reasons shouldnt [and probably most dont] push that choice onto others [and expecting no one else to eat meat around you IS pushing it onto others!] those who are vegetarians because they dont like meat, I can understand them not wanting to smell/cook meat, but I dont much care for Tofu for similar reasons, I wouldnt object to my friend eating it though and I would be happy to cook it for them too if the situation fitted.

I still think that even for ethical reasons its a choice and that a choice like that is made based on what an individual prefers to do.

What makes anyone think a meat eater hasn't considered the ethics of it and has just come to a conclusion different from the vegetarians?

Amberleaf - as far as this thread goes, I think the only example of vegetarians 'pushing that choice onto others' is in their own home. That is an exceptional circumstance: people adhering to their own beliefs, and having their beliefs respected in their own home, seems a perfectly reasonable thing to me. I said much earlier on the thread that meat-eaters must have some house rules that they would like people to stick to when visiting their home. Everyone has them, whether it's asking people to take their shoes off, or maybe not allowing a 16 year old offspring to have sex with their partner in the house (nb: these are two random examples).

Amber, a smile would have looked different. The grin emoticon looked in this context as though you were laughing at me. I wasn't trying to be 'arsey', just to keep the discussion civil and dispassionate.

I agree that Thumbwitch gets across the distinction between preference and ethical decision very well, and Drseuss nails the issue of it being simple good manners not to take things to someone's house if you know they find it upsettin/uncomfortable.

As a meat-eater, given the choice between going to a veggie friend's house for meat-free food or opting out because I didn't want their choices 'pushed' on me, I'd go along and eat meat-free, no question, because I'd always choose seeing the friend over the fact that I haven't made the same ethical choices as them. A meat-eater who can't face one meat-free occasion at a vegetarian friend's house could always simply not go. It seems to me that this would be an easy way for a vegetarian to find out pretty fast who their real friends are.

I think what makes this issue a grey area is that it was a BBQ not a dinner party, by their nature BBQs often involve 'bring your own' dont they? thats why I didnt think it especially rude or insulting that the meat eaters wanted to bring their own.

I dont now, I just couldnt treat guests as though they were children with a 'eat what you're given' mindset, I want any guests of mine to enjoy themselves and enjoying what they eat is part of that, if that means no meat or meat then so be it.

Oh and my understanding of MN etiquette is that a is passive agressive and a is more like a cheesy genuine smile. [in the context of my post anyway.

I didn't understand the smile and grin to mean that, but OK.

BBQs are often 'bring something to contribute', yes, but in this case the OP had explicitly said to her guests that they needn't bring anything as she would provide it all.

'eat what you're given' makes it sound as though the OP was dishing up gruel and expecting people to eat it, whereas in fact, as she says upthread, she provided a very carefully thought out and delicious-sounding spread (which in the end, incidentally, everyone ate and no one complained about). And I simply don't accept that just because someone is a meat-eater they will definitely not enjoy a meal that doesn't involve meat. Maybe for some people it wouldn't be their ideal meal, but if you want your ideal meal you can cook or go out and order it yourself. I don't know how many times I've been invited to eat at friends' houses and been told that they were planning to make something that I wouldn't choose to cook or buy for myself, but if someone says 'I'm thinking of cooking x; is that OK?' I wouldn't dream of complaining or insisting that they make something different or on bringing my own. That's rude and ungrateful.

But Amberleaf, you're applying your definition and set of rules for a bbq to a family gathering in the vegetarian OP's home, involving 6 long-term vegetarians and two non-veggie converts, who might be expected to have some understanding of the OP's views and feelings in her own own home. Why should your idea of a bbq take precedence over the OP's very particular circumstances?

So I take it you don't have any beliefs/house rules that you wouldn't cast aside for the enjoyment of your guests? If a guest comes to your house, they can do absolutely whatever they like, in the interests of their enjoyment?

fascicle The OPs dilemma has passed so this is all hypothetical really isnt it?

My idea of a BBQ shouldnt take precedence over the OPs circs, but I dont think my idea of a BBQ is that unique?

So I take it you don't have any beliefs/house rules that you wouldn't cast aside for the enjoyment of your guests? If a guest comes to your house, they can do absolutely whatever they like, in the interests of their enjoyment?

Im a pretty laid back sort of a person, I dont really go too strong on 'beliefs' especially ones that might infringe on other people! and anyone that would visit my home as my guest is quite likely to be of a similar mindset and just get on with enjoying my company and me theirs.

They can eat what they like too be it my food or something they choose to bring.

Amberleaf said:

The OPs dilemma has passed so this is all hypothetical really isn't it?

Yes and no. The discussion (and any discussion on AIBU) is all about the OP's situation, and besides, your arguments on this thread haven't changed (i.e. before and after the outcome of the OP's barby was known).

I'm a pretty laid back sort of a person, I don't really go too strong on 'beliefs' especially ones that might infringe on other people!

Your contributions on this thread do not tally with those of a laid back person who doesn't go too strong on beliefs. You said earlier: 'some really ridiculous things being said on here', 'to me meatless BBQ is a bit shit really!' and 'the holier than thou vegetarians piss me off' Those are fairly strong statements, indicating strong beliefs about vegetarian food/some vegetarians, especially given the lack of 'holier than thou vegetarians' on this thread. (If anybody had said that everyone should be vegetarian, or that it's wrong to eat meat, then you might have a point, but they haven't.)

"I just couldnt treat guests as though they were children with a 'eat what you're given' mindset, I want any guests of mine to enjoy themselves and enjoying what they eat is part of that, if that means no meat or meat then so be it."

I think the problem here is a lack of understanding about what meat means to many veggies.

See, to you it may be just a food choice, but to many veggies it's genuinely repulsive, it's more than a food choice. Many of us see it as murdered, dead flesh, rather than food.

Are you an animal lover? If so, to give you an insight, try imagining someone coming to your house and cooking a pet cat or dog or on your BBQ.
I sugested this upthread and someone replied they'd happily eat a dog. That's kind of missing the point! I'm simply trying to give you an insight into how many veggies feel about meat, not discuss what's morally right or wrong.
So, if you are an animal lover and you would be pretty disgusted to see a cat/dog being cooked on your BBQ, then that gives you an idea of how a many veggies feel about every kind of meat. (If eating pet cats and dogs is OK by you, then this analogy doesn't work for you!)

If you have any empathy with that, can you see why we might not want to eat in our own homes? It's something many of us want no part of, when it's us who's putting the food on the table. It's much more than just a food choice. Added to that, at a BBQ the smells of the meat cooking are very strong. They may smell nice to you, but many meat smells really turn my stomach, hanging around in a smoke of burning flesh is not my idea of a nice afternoon!

I enjoy the challenge of making nice veggie dishes for my meat-eating friends, and I really enjoy it when they say they didn't miss the meat. It's good to try new things, isn't it?

They dont need to say it fascicle, its the tone of superiority of veggies over meat eaters, the assumption that ones wants/needs trumps the other.

I do think a meatless BBQ is a bit shit, I wouldnt call that a belief, id call that an opinion!

I dont have beliefs about vegetarian food, I like vegetarian food, its all food to me.

Its people that get on my nerves not the food they eat either way. I have no time for people that want to impose their beliefs/preferences on others be it religion or food!

As I said, a guest in my home wont have my tastes foisted on them, if they dont eat meat I will provide veggie options. I certainly wont get offended that they dont want to eat my meat dishes!

"I think that a vegetarian that is against animals as food for ethical reasons shouldnt [and probably most dont] push that choice onto others [and expecting no one else to eat meat around you IS pushing it onto others!"

I eat with people who are eating meat all the time. I never speak about being vegetarian unless asked, and I certainly don't seek to make them feel uncomfortable about what they choose to eat.

If they come to my house though, that's a completely different matter. Then they can expect to get veggie food, as that's what we eat in my house.

The OP was talking about a BBQ at her house, not seeking to stop all people eating meat around her at all times.

Amberleaf you have still failed to understand the differences between a food preference and an ethical belief.

Let me try an extreme example iun the home you might understand!

Would you be happy sharing a BBQ with a cannibal who was eating human flesh?

Can you see that your (hypothetical) choice not to eat human meat goes beyond food preference? If it was coked into a meal it'd taste like pig, you might actually quite like the taste - but you wouldn't eat it on principle, would you?
And I'm guessing you'd feel pretty uncomfortable if someone brought human flesh to your BBQ?!

threeleftfeet I do get why some vegetarians are against it for ethical/humane reasons, I think I mentioned before that I have a few vegetarian/former vegetarians in my family/friends, so I understand the revulsion side of things.

If someone feels like that I can understand why they dont want to cook/handle meat.

Im not going to feel guilty for liking meat though, but I can still empathise with how they feel even though I in no way feel the same.

I wonder why though that some vegetarians are more tolerant of meat eaters/eating than others? that I think for me is what I struggle with and where my opinion of the 'holier than thou' attitude comes from, why can some be ok with it and not others? because the ones I know that dont mind are the ones less likely to be preachy about it.

Amberleaf you have still failed to understand the differences between a food preference and an ethical belief

No I do know the difference.

I suppose from the ethical side of things I take vegans more seriously than vegetarians. the ethical argument doesnt really work for me if a vegetarian wears leather or uses things that are made with animal by products. if animal products are ok to use as clothes but not to eat then to me its not about ethics its about food choices.

Thats a whole other side to it though.

"If someone feels like that I can understand why they dont want to cook/handle meat. "

OK, we have some common ground then :)

I think perhaps more veggies feel like this than many people realise. I feel repulsed by meat, but I would never say it to meat eaters in RL (unless they ask and really want to know!). I never try to make anyone else feel guilty for what they eat,

FWIW I avoid getting into this argument in RL, but on mumsnet find it strangely compulsive for some reason!

Tell him that if he can't have one meal without flesh he needs to bring one of those throw-away BBQs to cook it on.

Not a veggie, but quite happy to eat non-meat burgers etc - in fact we are doing a veggie bbq for DD's birthday party because one of her friends is a vegetarian. It's easier to have no meat than try to cook it all seperately. And as the food is all quite tasty i am not sure why anyone would mind - unless they have an ethical objection to eating lentils