to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

[Northernlurker]

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

I regularly trot my Y6 class past reception with some 5 year old child raging incoherently at a member of staff because the universe is not how they want it to be and It Isn't Fair.
TBH, the only ones doing it at this time of the year are those with parents that facilitate it, or ones with an SN that impairs their understanding of reasonable expectations of behaviour in a classroom. Most of them have matured since school entry.

Overreaction -- I was expecting you to say your DD was much older.

The teacher sounds far too task-oriented and focused on only one aspect of the reading experience -- getting the book read. She should have invited comments about the book before she started, maybe asking who has heard the story before, who has it at home, what do they think the story is about based on the front cover, who do they think the main character is, based on the cover, etc. That way the children would have been drawn into it and all the chit chat would have been dispensed with.

As for being told to move -- was she brusquely ordered or told to 'move', or was she already upset by being told off for talking when she was told to move? If you follow a telling off immediately by an order to move, an upset child who has been embarrassed when she was caught talking might be a bit like a deer in the headlights or behave out of character (saying No, etc).

The DD is 4 and has been at school less than a term. I think this teacher sounds bored and burned out and impatient and not really up to the task of taking care of young children after they have already spent a full day at school.

I'm sorry your daughter was upset. She didn't listen because you have the book at home - that was rude and she interrupted other children who might not have the book at home from listening. She was then rude, twice, to the teacher.

Would you prefer she was set not boundaries at an early age and grew up to be disruptive, rude, insolent and generally unmanageable at 11, 12, 13, etc.

I support the teacher here - you need to talk to your daughter about what is and isn't acceptable.

No, your daughter was rude and then insolent, twice. I was a four year old once and hot weather never made me rude to an adult, let alone a teacher. If anyone had done a fraction of what your daughter would had done, a board rubber was have been whistling past my ears and I'd have got my arse tanned at home if my mother had got wind of it. That wasn't that long ago either.

Now I am not suggesting that this was right, but you are going to the other extreme. Her behaviour is now being excused mother, who instead of backing up the school's message of 'be quiet and listen when the teacher is talking and when you are given a reasonable request by a teacher follow it' is busily undermining the school and their attempts to put firm but fair guidelines in place.

A few tears would be the least of my worries. I'd be more concerned with explaining the error of her ways and explaining the consequences if she finds herself behaving in a similar way again.

It was entirely appropriate behaviour from a four year old to relate the book to her own experience and very positive in the bigger scheme of things that she was excited to recognise the book. Obviously this aspect of things went right over the head of the teacher..

The expectation that a four year old will speak when spoken to and otherwise remain quiet and abide by all the rules during a very long school day is the problem here, and also imo the personality and approach of the teacher.

Inappropriate boundaries set at an early age are not positive and they are not really boundaries. You don't need to come the heavy on four year old children in order to teach them boundaries, with the fear of later hooliganism leading you to imposing behaviour expectations that are unrealistic. If you want to have children buy into your value system you draw them along with you, not beat their positive natural instincts down. You need to respect their stage of development and fine tune your approach accordingly. There is a difference between setting boundaries and placing inappropriate demands on children to behave for your own convenience or because you don't enjoy teaching or you are tired of four year olds all day.

Missed that she's only been at school since January, ours all start in September.
Tomorrow is a new slate hopefully, and if she came home very upset or talked about being told off at bedtime, surely you'd want to know what had happened?

Well thank god the days of arse tanning are long gone Compos

Let the school deal with it. She was rude, and she'll continue to be so at school if she thinks her mum will leap to her defence every time.

You aren't allowed to arse tan, you have to use sunscreen and a hat to protect them.

She is 4, give her a break! Yes, talking and saying no to a teacher are not acceptable and that has been reinforced, and doubtless will continue to be reinforced for a good while to come before the message finally sinks home.

OP I would do nothing more beyond reminding DD as often as it takes of what is and is not OK behaviour.

Roll on the holidays, I say.

Ah I see you aren't intending to complain.

I wouldn't grovel either.

The message home was because she was in floods of tears. I think you are the one over reacting really. Sorry. Easy to do when it is all so new.

At what age does it become acceptable to tell a child off for being rude, in your opinion, OP? Or will you always be making excuses for your daughter?

I agree with Mathanxiety

I have always had the rule that if they are punished at school I will not punish again at home(I do always back up the teacher though)because that would not be fair.One advantage of this is that they have never been afraid to tell me when they have got into trouble and then we can discuss and i can try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

4 year olds are very young to be in school and it does sound as if the teacher was a little harsh but then 4 year olds also tend to over react as someone else said

mathsanxiety- I imagine the teacher did have a small discussion about the book before they started reading- however one of the most important parts of school is learning to listen (whether this is to the teacher or one of her peers who is telling the whole class something). If she was that desperate to say something she should have put her hand up and said it to the whole class. If everybody just sat there whispering to the person next to them then it would be chaos. Dosnt matter what they are talking about- it is distracting and rude.
I dont think you should be grovelling or anything like that tomorrow but I do think your daughter was naughty by answering back and was dealt with appropriately. The biggest thing that worries me is the fact you are excusing her behaviour- it was hot... its the end of term... she has the book at home.... you need to back the school up.

I think a 4 year old answering back to a teacher like that is pretty awful behaviour and if any of mine did that I'd certainly want to know! Teachers can't win. If she didn't tell you until it had happened two or three times I expect you'd be on here moaning about how she hadn't told you the first time.

No need to grovel. If you see the teacher in the morning, I would simply say that the message through to me last night, I have had words with DD and I would not expect it to happen again, but I'm sure she'll tell me if it does :)

She was naughty/rude and the teacher told her off & let you know... I would tell DD that I was less than impressed with her behaviour and I don't want to hear that she has been rude to the teacher ever again.

We all know they are only small at 4, it's hot, it's the end of term... and all the rest of it and I do feel for them, but at the end of the day, none of that really matters, she needs to learn she can't cheek the teachers and expect to get away with it. I can see why she was talking to her friends (they do lack impulse control sometimes and the excitement of having the book at home might have been too much to hold in :) ) but I would be VERY cross at her saying NO to the teacher TWICE.

Better to deal with this small incident now by backing up the teacher to your DD than be on here in a few years time asking how to deal with an older child being regularly insolent and disruptive at school

Interestingly, as a teacher, this thread has renewed my faith that there are sensible, level headed parents out there who will back up teachers in their work. My DS is 6 and he would certainly have cried when chastised for being rude but mostly because he would be scared of my reaction on finding out and DH's. And so he should be- I'm sure I will get flamed for it but kids should be wary of their parents, to some degree. I adore my son but part of my adoration should be to teach him to behave properly.

I don't think age is an excuse for rudeness. Imagine what would happen in class if all the children spoke to the teacher like that. Hopefully your dd will be apologising tomorrow. We all feel that sometimes children are too young to be in a formal environment, teachers included, it's not easy but it's a choice that parents make.

A child blatantly saying "no" is one of the rudest things I've ever experienced as a teacher. It's not just misbehaviour it's outright disrespect and has to be nipped in the bud right at the start. Your daughter is very young, yes, and so the talking to should have been appropriate but to be honest I would expect most children to be crying after the talking to I would give them if they said that to me. I wouldn't be harsh or shout, but I would make it very clear that saying "no" to a teacher is definitely not on unless the circumstances are very extreme.

No need to grovel, just hope that your DD has learned her lesson and won't do this again.

Until you actually hear from the teacher about what went on you cannot imagine at all what went on before the book was read. IMO if there had been any discussion of the book beforehand, the child would have had a chance to share the fact that she had the book at home with the group and would not have been telling her neighbour about it.

The teacher was undoubtedly hot too, and it is also the end of term for her. There is still no reason for her to make unreasonable demands on the children at the end of a long day.

At the age of four, I don't think the behaviour can even be classed as rudeness. It most certainly can be viewed in the context of first term in school, long, hot day, and reaction to the heavy handedness of a teacher who was fixated on getting the book read to the exclusion of all other considerations it seems. A good teacher would not allow the whole class to descend into the sort of chaos LeeCoakley imagines without the iron rod there to keep them all in line. A good teacher would allow scope for chat and would gradually draw their interest back to the matter at hand.

I have sent five children through early years and not once in all that time have I seen a child leave in floods of tears or even dripping a bit. DD3 had to be hauled bodily into the classroom at age four and left sobbing in the hands of the TA but she always came out with a smile on her face. Something is wrong with the teacher when a child is in that much distress at the end of the day.

' Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move.'

'She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout'

See, now to me asking a child to stop talking would be considered a verbal warning that what they were doing was inappropriate and needed to stop.
Then the next step was her saying no, and the consequence was being asked to move. Which she also refused to do.
Timeout at the end of the day in a reception class is tricky, she may have sat and roared with rage for the rest of the story if timeout had been employed.
Then the poor little mite goes to after school club? She must be knackered on a regular basis.