to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

[Northernlurker]

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

There is a world of difference between a child being rude and defiant to it's parents than to a teacher.
They try things out on their parents, who they know love them unconditionally, but they don't have that relationship with a teacher.
It is normal for a child to say "no" to a parent, but I wouldn't say it is normal for a 4 year old to do the same to a teacher.

I agree bruffin.

I work as a TA and it is unusual for a child this age to be so defiant to a teacher. If the teacher is not warm, as you say, OP, then your daughter could be feeling upset and expressing that as defiance. OTOH, she could just be having a hard time adjusting to new communal rules.

I'm not saying your child is "evil", naturally, OP.

Why does the "summer born" excuse always creep in ?
My eldest son is an end of August baby. He did not have any problems behaving when he was in school, (he's 19 now) likewise my late June born youngest son. (11),or my January born 15 year old daughter. They knew how to behave,and how to follow instructions,even when they were in Foundation stage.
So much of my time at work is spent asking children to "follow the instruction",because they have been asked several times,and think that they can just do as they please and in their own time,and argue about it in the process.

jamdonut. i agree it's not an excuse and behaviour should be good on first request.
But...there was a study recently published showing children, especially boys, who are younger in class are significantly more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD, due in part to their immaturity in following instructions. I'll try and find the link.
Not all children are ready for school at the same time, my dd is summer born and looked bewildered most of the time. She wasn't being naughty, just clueless.

1950sHousewife. There is a whole world of difference between "finding instructions bewildering" (neither of my summer born boys found it remotely bewildering, btw) and being actively rude and defiant. Even if there was a proven correlation, she is unlikely to be the only one in the class. And as to the other excuses offered by the op, it was a hot afternoon, it's late in the term, etc - they apply equally to the other 30 odd kids in the class, too, do they not?
Imagine the utter chaos if all of them behaved as they wished with the full sanction of their parents! The teacher handled it perfectly well.

I agree totally that the teacher was fair and that children need to follow directions. If my dd came home saying a teacher bollocked her I would back them up completely. In fact, I would probably march her back the next day to the teacher to make sure the message got fully across. I love it when people help discipline my DCs.
I'm just saying that summer born kids sometimes finding it more difficult to comprehend directions is now being shown in studies.

As a teacher, it seems that I regularly walk into a classroom, see an immaculately behaved kid, tell them off and give them a detention. Or so their parents tell me as their kid has always been unfairly maligned. I am delighted to hear so many of you back a teacher and hope that these are not just idle words. As a parent, I know that getting kids to do as they are told can be hard. Now times it by 30 and get them to not only behave but engage in a productive activity through which they learn something. Then have someone tell you how you pick on their child and see how you feel about it!

To tell a teacher no is rude IMO and to do it twice is extremely rude and disrespectful. The teacher was right to tell her off and right to inform you of the facts so that you could ensure that she doesn't do it again and perhaps apologise next day?
If you think she behaved badly because she was too tired to be at after school club then you should make other arrangements, but you can't expect the teacher to lower her behaviour standards for your DD otherwise the school would be chaos!

If summer-born children find it hard to follow instructions/are easily tired then should they be in the classroom from the September? A child born in August who starts school a few weeks after their 4th birthday should still be in a nursery environment for their own benefit in most cases. The default for starting reception should revert back to previous years when children started in the term in which they are 5 but with an override available if it is obvious the child is mature enough to cope with reception earlier. If not the EY curriculum can still be delivered, albeit in a more suitable setting.

I think it's interesting that the child behaved far better for the supply teacher who she said she liked. She's seemingly making conscious choices about who she complies for. She was rude and disrespectful to her regular teacher and obviously didn't like being pulled up for it. The teacher acted perfectly appropriately imo.

Probably LeQueen.
I was also a Summer born baby and I would never have told a teacher no once let alone twice (and I was quite wilfull)

Sounds like the teacher did the right thing. Children are naughty and teachers have to deal with it so that they can learn somefink!

Sorry I have not read the whole thread so someone has probably said this, but I would guess that the reason the teacher thought they ought to let you know was because your DD had started crying.

The teacher had given her a dressing down, she had burst into tears, and the teacher thought "Oh dear, I'd better let her Mum know what this was all about or she'll wonder what the heck I am doing to her poor DD to get her into this state."

YABU, IMO

She was given a warning, to stop, and she was told to move after not complying and she replied NO to both.

One of the things I always tell DS is to behave at school. One child misbehaving spoils it for everyone else.

I wouldn't have a gentle word with DD, but a stern word, and that I expected her to behave better in future.

Plus, was she in floods of tears because of the teacher or when she got to you to get you on your side?

DrSeuss, definitely not idle words, as DS discovered last year. :o

PS - HER side, not your.

YABU. Kids need to learn boundaries early on - imagine the anarchy in a classroom of 4 and 5 year olds if they didn't respect the teacher's authority. And then no doubt you would be complaining that your child wasn't learning anything because the teacher has no classroom control.

A lot of children get upset about a telling off - sometimes it's a good thing because in my experience it is the kids who have good discipline at home and therefore know they will be told off for it. Ignore the people saying this is awful, you'll be grateful when your DD is a hormonal 14 year old :)

At four years old, the expectation that a child will maintain her equilibrium at all times and never get tetchy is ridiculous, especially in the wake of a telling off for being excited enough about a book that she talked with her schoolmate about it. This is a teacher who doesn't see the forest for the trees.

It is obvious from NorthernLurker's OP and subsequent posts that she has not had this experience before with her older children or with this one.

I would say that there are several reasons the DD's day with the supply teacher went well:

• The supply teacher conducted the class as the class expected, did the dancing she was looking forward to. (Because teachers can choose whether to behave like dragon ladies or to count to ten and weigh incidents before hitting the roof too -- in fact it is more reasonable to expect an adult to do this than to expect a child of four to behave perfectly in school all day every day).

• The DD is not a naturally aggressive, badly brought up little girl with no sense of boundaries and a propensity for rudeness that goes unchecked at home, and the previous day was in fact a once off incident that had a lot to do with the personality and unreasonable expectations of the teacher, or possibly events in the teacher's life that made her snap at the child (she has taken the remaining days off and perhaps this is because of a health problem?) in combination with weather, tiredness of the child.

• Like all children, she knows when an adult doesn't feel completely enthused about her job dealing with children all day (the teacher took the last two days of term off after all, perhaps for health reasons, but perhaps because term couldn't end fast enough for her?) and the DD's frustrations in the not-entirely-welcoming environment were expressed in the way a four year old might be expected to express such feelings.

Northernlurker I think you have done totally the right thing by supporting the school/ teacher. I should imagine there will be a parent's evening during the Summer term and you can talk about it then. If you/school feel more strongly, you should be able to have a chat before this.

School are right to expect a certain standard of behaviour, and this can be hard for children starting school. After a full term, children should be aware of expectations. This was very rude behaviour and has been dealt with properly by the teacher.

A mum of one of my ds's friends complains about his naughtiness and 'sends him to school for a bit of discipline' . At my home, he is disruptive and will not do as he as told. There is a standard of behaviour that all children must understand and conform to and this higher than at home.

'- Like all children, she knows when an adult doesn't feel completely enthused about her job dealing with children all day (the teacher took the last two days of term off after all, perhaps for health reasons, but perhaps because term couldn't end fast enough for her?) and the DD's frustrations in the not-entirely-welcoming environment were expressed in the way a four year old might be expected to express such feelings.'

Surely one might have expected a riot of minis then? All of them responding to the lack of enthusiasm and whatnot? Reception Revolution?
Plus, if you take a day off sick before a holiday, you need a Dr's note as a teacher, because otherwise you get docked pay for the entire holiday. Or that's the way my LEA runs things.

Cor!
Mindmeld with LeQueen.