To be unsurprised that so many women get post natal depression?

[toptramp]

My late mum had post natal depression after a horrendous birth during which she almost died. Couple that with the shock of becoming a new mum and the general lack of staus that society offers mums (especially single mums like me) and I am not surprised that so many of us get so down. It is a wonderful time but it also so tough. What can be done about it?
My birth wasn't great (I had a c-section)and I did it without a dp yet I didn't get pnd like my mum did. I did get the shock of my life mixed with a lot of love!

You know what frightened me last night? I opened the thread, read the second infamous post and closed the thread with a real feeling of fear that I was such a failure and a bad mother and so weak I couldn't cope with what other women deal with so easily. I really felt like that - absolutely crushed.

I am NOT that person! Since understanding what depression was first hand, I've been open and unafraid about discussing it, I don't see it as anything to be ashamed of, I can distinguish between feeling low and depression, I understand why it happens and what my danger signs are, I can tell exactly when my mind begins to collapse in on itself, I cope with it using a tried and tested range of strategies, including medication for PND, I know I am not a weak person. I have many faults and weaknesses but I know I've been through more than the average woman and here I am, still standing, still smiling and you know what - I am so proud of myself for that.

But still one person's ignorant response could crush my spirit and it was a little while before I could come back to the thread and say my piece and more sleepless hours while I assessed my response and worked through the fear that comment provoked in me. I hate to think how someone who is at a vulnerable stage of 1st time pnd may have felt.

Thanks for those sleepless hours trois - but even more, thanks for re-igniting my spirit to fight that ignorance, and to be as open and down-to-earth as possible to try and protect friends who may be vulnerable or afraid to open up in case they are perceived as failures from the damage people like you can cause.

I'm not going to go into my story of PND and PTSD as it would out me, suffice to say that Trois you are quite frankly speaking a load of tosh and I hope that one day you don't find yourself in the deep pit of despair that depression brings. I'm sorry if my inabiltiy to "get over" my child and myself almost dying makes me weak but tbh I'd rather be "weak" than the compassion-less cow you have made yourself sound.

I am also pretty annoyed at MNHQ deleting all the responses to the post. It give's the impression they agree with Trois which I hope is not true. However coming to it just now and seeing it I am thankful that I am better as seeing her post being allowed to stand and all the other deletions would have made me feel worse about myself.

First of all massive ((((un-MumsNetty hugs)))) to Scheherezade

HeartsJJ and Gentleness and others - I do sometimes feel vulnerable still as well, but I am almost 3 full years completely stable Having coping mechanisms and a wonderful DH who watches me like a hawk make me feel safe in myself. Coping mechanisms and knowing your triggers are key I feel. For me, getting a good night's sleep is absolutely vital so I hardly ever stay up past about 9.30pm! Boring and middle aged and fat now (from the meds) but stable. Fat and happy.

Also

I feel that PND stole the first year with DD1

My mental health issues have stolen years from me. I thank God every day that they did not also steal my husband, my daughters, my life.

Have to stop weeping over this thread now and get back to work.

I work with families in inner London and there is such a huge difference in the way that families from other cultures -particularly African- treat women after they've had a baby. In these families, the extended family tends to completely take over and the new mother is waited on hand and foot and the only thing she is expected to do for about the first month is feed the baby.I think they really recognise that pregnancy and birth are exhausting and that women need time to recover physically and mentally. When I had DD, DH only had 3 days paternity leave so 3 days after a horrendous birth, still wincing in pain from stitches and piles, I remember trying to take 3 day old DD and 2 year old DS1 to a toddler group because you're supposed to just "get on with it".
I had PND with each pregnancy, the third time ending up in a Mother and baby unit and I think, in my case, it was about 75% biological and 25% psychological. And trois, I have run 3 marathons and done 2 triathlons and I can assure you that, when I was at my lowest point in the MBU, it took more strength and determination to get out of bed, have a shower and get dressed than it did to run 26 miles. It's widely known that Winston Churchill suffered from depression - presumably you think he was weak?

Considering what some women endure, it's surprising that the figure isn't higher.

There are different levels of depression and different mixtures of reasons between the hormonal to the environmental, the effects vary enormously. It's got nothing to do with weakness or strength, it's a matter of hormones and environment, telling a depressed person to pull themselves together is probably like telling an exhausted person to stay bright eyed and bushy tailed

I think exhaustion is what pushes a lot of people to the brink, it's torture trying to function on an hours broken sleep, if you combine that with the stress of minding a baby, the stress on your relationship, a different lifestyle (culture shock), financial worries, remaining health issues from pregnancy/birth and hormone fluctuations, depression is probably a natural consequence for some people.

Everybody is different, we all react individually so depression is just one of a variety of responses. It seems like a common one. Personally I find myself being extremely aggressive with crazy mood swings while being happy most of the time so I think my hormones are slightly deranged (or making me that way), some people on here sound disassociated and in denial, some people have anxiety problems....

We're all somewhere on a vast spectrum and all of it is a normal part of being human, it's sad to see some women on here feeling so ashamed of their perfectly normal life experiences because they happen not to fit into the fantasy which we are all supposed to falsely portray to the world.

Hackmum I'm miles too late, but she was thoroughly miserable and sleep-deprived, and so finding day-to-day life a struggle. She was worried about the baby which wouldn't stop screaming and refused to be put down without upping the volume. She and her husband didn't share a bed for almost six weeks because one of them had to be with the baby and he had to be at work.

She was wondering what the bloody hell she'd done - sure, she had the indescribable love for her child but she also had become a mother in a society that doesn't rate them very highly. Her husband went back to work after maximum paternity leave, which is all of a fortnight. Big whoop. And that's not blaming him - he wanted to be there. But only one of them got maternity pay, and that wasn't him.

What she got was in response was GPs and HVs asking if she felt she was going to harm herself or a child. These are obviously questions that need asking but they couldn't be farther from what she was feeling. There were a few guilty confessions from the NCT mums along the lines of 'my baby is acting like an arsehole' and she says that it was those moments that kept her feeling like she hadn't completely lost sight of herself.

Apologies toptramp for that ill tempered interruption.

I think Kate Figes discussed this in 'Life after Birth', why more women don't get PND. After all you are thrown in at the deep end and just expected to get on with it. It's really, really tough and some form of 'depression' is maybe to be expected as a natural reaction?

I (and other members of my family) suffered from very severe PND and it was absolutely hellish. I can't even begin to describe what it was like. Others have commented that they felt like they 'lost' or 'wasted' their DCs baby months and guilty for not enjoying them. I feel like that too. DS was the loveliest, smiliest baby and we have a wonderful relationship now but I spent months wishing he wasn't there and that I wasn't a mother. It really was the worst time of my life.

As for PND being biological/chemical, I'm not sure. I suspect there's a combination of factors involved which can make it worse - lack of support, (friends, unsupportive or absent partner/family), poor access to healthcare, poorly baby, feeling isolated and so on. Having all those things might make PND less likely but would they prevent it?

I'm really shocked TBH, That post was very unlike trois.

Can't really comment much because this thread cuts deep with me but just wanted to tell you all how brave you are. Every single day.

:)

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I do hope Trois has apologised sincerely for her offensive, patronising and downright wrong post. Trois, I often agree with your POV on here, but that was a stupid thing to say. I am very, very far from weak, yet have been suffering from PND for the last 6 months, although I am getting better day by day. I have not suffered half the trauma you have, but I have suffered enough trauma, for me, to trigger PND. Your experience doesn't make my PND better. Your comments a month or 2 ago would have had me in floods of tears however. Now, starting to feel more like myself, they just piss me off and make me feel hugely sad that a woman could say that about the suffering of other women.

Nope, no apology.

I wouldn't hold our collected breath, either.

'collective', even.

YANBU!
I agree with VictorGollancz - the situation of having a new baby in our culture is going to be a great risk factor for depression. I've had depression before so was concerned I would get PND with dc1 but, despite being unable to walk for 3 months of pregnancy, horrible postnatal experience, no family support, and no roof on my house for months - and MrNC trying to sort that so not able to help with the baby much, I applied all the coping techniques I knew and luckily didn't get depressed.

With dc2 I've had a worse pregnancy but good hospital experience, have much more support and a warm house - but I'm experiencing depressive symptoms that may grow into full PND. Am I suddenly weaker? Hell no.

I think upsylazy has a point that cultures where family/whoever look after the mother for a month or more do better - it's noticeable in my multicultural area that almost all women at baby groups etc are white (less than 40% of women are), and all the ones I've seen in tears at the HV clinic are white.
Currently I'm wondering if the move to put babies on backs has reduced SIDS but worsened PND as lots of babies scream instead of sleep and the mothers (ok. me) are too scared to turn them over and get some kip.

Not to mention the whole 'guidelines' aka rules that we're all supposed to follow nowadays or you are 'putting your baby at risk', ie if it comes to harm it will be ALL YOUR FAULT. How many mothers manage to do all of exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months, getting baby to sleep on back all the time, and keeping it in their room for 6 months? Under 1%. The other 99% are therefore deemed 'going against medical advice' and it's not surprising if they (we) feel like 'failures'...

trois such a damaging thing to say.

People who are suffering from depression feel terribly weak and the shame is what stops them from seeking help for the illness.

I agree with notcitrus - all the guidance is confusing and puts even more pressure on. I wonder whether my DD would have slept a lot better in her front but I didn't dare go against the guidance. Ironically when I was born the guidance was to put babies on their front. I wonder how the rate of SIDS has changed since the guidance changed to sleeping on backs.

i think that when they changed the sids guidance to say put your baby on their back the rate of sids dropped significantly, its one of the biggest risk factors i think. not sure why tho?

It doesn't suprise me at all. IME you're thrown to the wolves after having a baby and left to it.

IME you get a couple of nights in a noisy hospital with little help then sent home to 'get back to normal'. The lucky mums will have a partner who supports them and family members who can muck in. A lot of people will be back at the supermarket, cooking, chasing older children around and have a partner who can't take time off. HV's don't help when they turn up, you have to chat to them, they don't hold the baby so you can pee in peace.

Even if you have a section you're seen as a champion for driving within a couple of weeks of the birth and getting back to normal despite the fact the inner wounds won't have healed yet. Hospitals do not expect anyone else to be back on their feet so quick following major abdominal surgery (the hospital bollocked me when I asked if I could pick up my 11mo 5 weeks after my hysterectomy, NO I could not as I would not have healed yet was their answer), apparently it's ok if you have a baby to look after too though .

I had a minor rant about this issue some time ago, AFAIK the MAT B1 forms still say 'expected date of confinement'. I certainly don't think mums should be isolated from the world after giving birth but a return to letting a mother take a month out to recover, feed and rest would do everyone the world of good.

I was in a much better state after having DC2 as I basically stuck 2 fingers up to the world and jolly well did it my way, stayed at home in pj's, cbeebies for DC1 and non stop ready meals and domino pizzas for tea for the first few weeks. Bugger getting back to normal or battling on. When I felt recovered then we got back into the swing of things, and not any sooner.

And what notcitrus said too.

Trois
You've made me feel sick, and also made me cry. I've got pnd. I am in no way weak. I have encountered so many things in my life, a child of a dv marriage, sexual abuse, multiple misscarriages, yet I've picked myself up and carried on because to do otherwise would be letting the bad guys win. But apparently all of this doesn't matter because I have pnd and must be weak. How ignorant of you. Bloody ignorant. Im pleased you've not had pnd, it can quite literally destroy your life.
Comments like yours are why I struggled to get help. Shame on you.

pinkfondant rates of SIDS have fallen by 70%.