To be unsurprised that so many women get post natal depression?

[toptramp]

My late mum had post natal depression after a horrendous birth during which she almost died. Couple that with the shock of becoming a new mum and the general lack of staus that society offers mums (especially single mums like me) and I am not surprised that so many of us get so down. It is a wonderful time but it also so tough. What can be done about it?
My birth wasn't great (I had a c-section)and I did it without a dp yet I didn't get pnd like my mum did. I did get the shock of my life mixed with a lot of love!

I have had PND-OCD 3 times (post-natal depression with post-natal obsessive-compulsive disorder). I have had regular OCD for years but just thought it was personality quirks but PND-OCD is something special all the OCD behaviour is focussed intensely on your baby and the depression is all encompassing.

I had hundreds of Intrusive Thoughts each day (thoughts that derail your normal everyday thoughts). In my case they were 'visions' of my daughter dying horribly. I had a nice one that repeated on a loop - my daughter flying out of the pushchair on the bus and dashing her head open on the windscreen during an accident, I would then rush over and try to scoop her brains back in her head to bring her back to life. I saw this again and again and again. I couldn't walk certain ways in our town as I would obviously trip and let go of the pram and it would roll into the road and get hit by a car and DD1 would die horribly (yet again!).

It was like living in a horror film with my daughter being the star. I spent everyday terrified but I looked pretty normal (except when I put DD1 in and out of her buggy multiple times trying to get the harness as tight as possible as otherwise she would be injured and a cafe full of people stared at me whilst I did it over and over again - there is a lot of repetitive behaviour with OCD!)

I was strong though. I didn't give in to the urge to kill myself (that I had many, many times a day) as I was such a crap mother I couldn't prevent my brain from showing me these things I deserved to die. Except I knew how much she needed me so I couldn't. I was torn in two each day - many times a day. Kill myself and then DH could marry a proper mother to take care of DD1 or stay with DD1 who needed me, flawed as I was. It would have been so easy to give in to the urges to kill myself, they are so seductive they want you to do it, they really do (disassociation much!) but I resisted.

I was strong when I battled to keep bfing DD1 and get a safe med prescribed to deal with my PND-OCD.

I was strong when I walked out of a psych. appt when the Dr accused me of forcing my then 22m DD1 to bf and getting my jollies from it rather than sitting there and taking it.

I was strong when I did a CBT course and beat some of my long standing OCD behaviours.

I was strong when I didn't throw myself under a train when a suicidal ideation came from now where, knocked me for 6 and was so compelling - I had actually turned the double pushchair around so DD2 & DD3 wouldn't see me kill myself before I dragged myself back from the barrier - I was literally seconds away from being hit by a train.

Not weak at all I don't think. I hope even if anyone thinks I was selfish, self-indulgent or weak they don't tell me as I am proud I got through PND-OCD with my children and me intact and my marriage strong as ever. I'd hate to have my bubble broken!

TruthSweet you sound so brave. Your train incident has brought me to tears. I remember quite calmly & rationally sitting in the car at a crossroads of a major road and planning how it would possoble to get hit by a lorry so that I would get killed but DD in her car seat would be OK. It seemed like a completely plausable and logical plan to me at the time.

Going back to the OP....

What could be done to help?
Well starters of the understanding of Mental Health issues and support for funding them would help... You have to be incredibly strong to overcome them. The idea you are somehow weak is directly against the reality.

Given that Sleep Deprievation is a known torture practice and you throw a bunch of chemicals into the mix I'm actually flabbergastered that someone thinks people are somehow making it up or wallowing in it.

Yes, because people consider or actually try to kill themselves because they aren't really mentally ill they are just pretending to be. They are just weak.

Lets get this straight. How many Not Mentally Ill People try to kill themselves?

I think you might have a list consisting of the terminally ill and thats about it.

Ignoring twats and going back to the OP, I do believe that the lack of support for new mums does aggravate the risk of PND. I had a huge amount of support (family, husband, doula, pfb grandchild, daily walks in a nice woodland) and still felt overwhelmed, I cannot imagine having to get through the first few weeks without that support, yet women do it every single day.

My cousin had a similar birth to mine (assisted forceps after long labour) and had PND. She believes it was aggravated by the fact she felt unempowered and unsupported during the labour, that she was little more than an inconvenient slab of meat. Totally different to my supported Doula/MW led birth.

I wonder how much PND costs the NHS and society compared to the expense of having better support for new mothers?

trois what a dreadful crass ignorant and smug comment, can't believe I read that from a person in this day and age!!

The trouble is a lot of PND mums do appear to cope, the house isn't too messy, the children and clean and fed - so who cares really if the mum spends her days trapped in a living hell (of either the depression, anxiety, OCD or PTSD variety)? The HCPs seem mainly concerned about the impact on the children (which they should be of course) but almost nothing about the welfare of the mother. It's as if we don't count as soon as we have children.

Adults with depression/OCD/anxiety/PTSD/what have you seem to get a reasonable amount of help (though not enough I'd wager) yet mothers with these conditions who to all intents and purposes have yet to go off the deep end are not a priority at all (or is it just my area!). There is just enough help for the mothers who have gone off the deep end and that is usually just hospitalising the mother and fostering the children (or dad giving up his job/a grandparent moving in).

The CBT I did was a general course for adults with OCD not a specialist PND-OCD yet I know of two other mothers (that I have met through non-MH things) with PND-OCD - both of whom are struggling to get help.

truthsweet you are so strong and brave and an inspiration.

Was stunned by the trois post. Just skimmed whole thread to see if they came back to defend their comment, but apparently not.

truthsweet big hugs for you and all you've been through, and I've read your post with great interest. I'm trying to come to terms with the thought that for the past year I might have had undiagnosed PND, but I've never spoken to anyone about it.

I regularly have 'visions' of DD dying. For example, we have railings at the front of our house/gate, and ever since she was born I have this vision of her somehow impaling herself even though it would be near impossible for her to reach (they're about 4ft high). It gives me the chills and makes me feel sick. I'm not sure if PND is chemical, situational or what, but like the OP, I'm not surprised that so many people get it.

I think more women get PND than those that get help, but with attitudes like Trois', who can blame them for not speaking up.

wow I have never seen such an effective 1st response hijack!

I agree with the comments that finding motherhood much more shit than expected is one thing but having PND is another.

I could not spend 10 mins alone with my baby before I would freeze with panic/ stress/misery and essentially spending the rest of the day throwing up. Bizarrely I was pretty much fine being left in charge of someone else's baby for 30 mins (they didn't know I was struggling and I didn't know how to tell them). A major part of the problem was the intense (physical) pain I felt every time my baby cried and the huge amount of anxiety I had that she would start crying when she wasn't (undiagnosed rpc). This developed into PND later.

I think a big problem is people don't realise the effect the physical impact of childbirth can have on your mental state...and that in return it is hard to recover your feet physically if you are suffering from depression.

In my case I was unwell within 24 hours of giving birth to my DD. I wished she would die for 4 days so I wouldn't be forced to take her home from hospital. I felt nothing for her. She was a big lump of problems to me. Therefore I believe my PND started out as a chemical/ hormonal imbalance.

It got worse and worse over the following months due to situation. Lack of support, sleep deprivation, feeding problems etc.

I put a brave face on it. Apart from my DH no one knew. Till I told them, which I do, at every opportunity. I am trying my hardest to make sure that if one of my friends or family ever finds themselves in that place, they will know they can come to me for understanding or at least have some awareness that this can happen. They're probably all bored of me by now and I know one pregnant friend has expressed dismay at what a depressing picture I paint. But if I help one person by being honest then it's worth it.

I believe that we need more realistic information antenatally about what the day to day of life with a new baby is like and more community support, be that family, friends, HCP's, neighbours etc.

Nini - Have a look into PND-OCD (known as PPD-OCD in the US) as it often gets lumped in under PND but can be a very separate MHI (afterall other adults with OCD don't get treated for depression - they get treated for OCD).

The intrusive thoughts you are describing are very common* but it's how you respond to them that's key. If you have a horrible thought then shrug it off, you definitely don't have OCD, but if you 'ruminate' or blame yourself or have a very visceral/physical reaction to it, it may be OCD (not that I am diagnosing you via the powers of the internet of course!).

• in fact almost everyone has intrusive thoughts according to the CBT course I went on - they might be sexual in nature (e.g. touching someone inappropriately, kissing your colleague in a meeting when you don't like them like that!), profane (e.g. swearing loudly in a supermarket), heretical (e.g. standing up in church and yelling Jesus is dead [or a lot worse!]), inappropriate behaviour/language (e.g. kicking someone on the train, telling your boss something you shouldn't) or about your children (e.g. my DD1 in bus accidents) - but most people think them and then think 'Oh that's silly I would never kiss my colleague, I love my OH' and move on, an OCD-type person might feel guilty as if the colleague might somehow know, or feel compelled to atone for their 'discretion' in some way by some kind of ritual or compulsion (e.g. performing a ritual that makes them feel safe or apologising to the OH for their thoughts).

Someone on this thread stated that it would be more helpful if the experts focused on the mothers who HADN'T developed PND. I think this is a really good point.
Why didn't they experience PND, when it seems a hell of a lot of women do?

Thanks truth, I will take a look :) . My response to those thoughts tend to be to dwell on them - so with the impaling situation, then imagining DD's funeral, life without her, not being able to live in the house anymore etc.

Big hugs for you again, you're amazing :)

Im a psychiatric nurse, I have bouts of depression and I suffer on and off with OCD, I see this from both sides.

One of the big challenges that we face as nurses are the people who dont have depression but are struggling, they struggle to understand that there is a difference between feeling overwhelmed and having a clinical depression and I think from that side I can understand the 'touch of' comment, however that comes down to providing education and also helping people access other types of support, social services provide a huge amount of support with young babies that doesnt involve entering the system, like mum and tots groups that can be life savers for frazzled mums

Im more interested in getting in on the OP's question however, what can be done? if I put my work head on its about mums feeling that they can be honest about how they are feeling, dads keeping an eye out for the signs and trying to be as supportive as possible, and midwives and GP's actually listening and referring on not just chucking tablets at mums and leaving them too it

For the mums I think its about knowing your body, understanding when changes are happening and trying not to feel guilty about it, its not a weakness, the sooner we can catch PND the quicker we can treat it, and even a week or two makes a vast difference, I wish that all mums to be would get some basic information including what help is on offer, I know when I visit houses mums are often panicking that their babies will be taken away and are surprised about what we can offer service wise

To my mind stgma is our biggest barrier to success, and that wont change while that perception of weakness continues

Hmmmmm I had a 7 year battle to have the dtwins(nearly died with OHSS,failed IVF,several 'perished frozen embryos'),moved from 1 end of the country South to North,gave up my job and beautiful flat to fund IVF and dp's uni course,left all my friends behind,coped with newborn twins alone,moved back,bought a house,dp faced redundancy.......coped ok,battled through it all fine and dandy then I had dd a year later.Bingo PND!!!!!!

Was living back where we loved,dp had a great new job,parents down the road.There is no rhyme nor reason for PND and I don't believe the weak get it.I am tough as old boots.I sailed through 7 years of shit.I got the 2 boys and a beautiful girl,everything I always wanted then PND came like a bolt out of the blue.

Personally I think the modern day pressure to love babies,breast feed amazingly and enjoy being the perfect mum you see in mags along with consistent 'research,studies',lack of support,giving up work you love,lack of money let alone coping with a newborn and hormones etc doesn't help with PND.

sometimes i wish there was someone there to look after me.

its like if i faded away noone would notice.

troisgarcons yours is a mindless comment and offensively smug.

Perhaps you had the advantage of a supportive DP to help you stay 'strong'. Throw into the mix an ignorant dullard with no understanding who repeats your line about PND simply being a manifestation of being 'weak' and even the toughest cookie would be likely to fall into a seemingly bottomless pit.

Bad call, that comment.

I had severe PND
I had no support/help apart from DH
I had severe chronic back pain
I had a history of depression
I had my abusive childhood come back to haunt me
I had my issues about being adopted myself
I had regular threatening texts from a relative from 2 days post birth
I had months of total bleakness and wanting to commit suicide
I had to cope........

After nearly a year I sought help and with a mixture of ADs and 18 mths of specialised PND counselling came out the other side of PND.

I think there is a brain chemistry element to PND, but there are also past and present trigger factors too ( I hadn't realised just being adopted was one ).

Trois, call me weak if you want but pray that you never ever find yourself in the position of having to cope and smile on the outside while planning suicide in your mind.