To think headteacher shouldn't tell children what time their bedtime is?

[Butterkist]

My dd's headteacher today told the school in assembly that their bedtime should be 7pm, 7.30pm at the latest.

Now my dd takes what the teachers (esp the HT) say as gospel, and I always try to ensure there is no conflict of messages between us and the school.

But my dd comes home from school at 5.45, requires dinner, needs to do music practice, reading and homework, and on a couple of evenings a week (including tonight) does out of school activities that finish at 7pm.

Bed time for us is 8.30pm, with lights off at 9pm, this is what works for us. My dd is up for school in time in the morning, and leaves home at 8.15.

Tonight she has missed her out of school activity as she's got to be in bed by 7pm for 7.30pm, so that she can answer correctly if the HT asks her tomorrow. This is her words. She suffers from anxiety and is a perfectionist so will only do the right thing.

AIBU to have a word tomorrow, and say that bedtime are the parents call not the school's?

Butterkist - I think you deserve the award for someone asking AIBU? - and then actually listening and agreeing to some of the suggestions!

Glad you are going to try some different routines for dd - hope it helps

music practice isnt in school time though?

Sorry, butterkist I don't understand your last post.

Can you be clearer?

I feel anxious myself just thinking about that schedule OP. She is so little to do such long days, is it all really necessary? ASC is necessary as you work but its not the same as chilling out at home so it should be considered as an 'activity' as such. You also say your DD is anxious and a perfectionist but have you considered that she may have too much on her plate to perfect and it's all too much to cope with.

Both my DCs are 5&8 and in bed at 7/730 and a bit later at weekends. Any later and its grumpy heads all around! And not just the kids.

Well, I for one don't believe that the levels on anxiety Butterkist is describing in her dd are the result of long and busy days, and I think she is wise to be seeking professional help.

Having said that, I think a less stressful schedule and earlier bedtime would probably help (but you'd have to have a sharp word with the music teachers, or find some more relaxed ones, so that less practise doesn't result in more stress).

And no, it is not a teachers job to make blanket announcements about bedtimes (though reasonable to raise it with a specific parent if it is obvious that child is tired).

My opinion, fwiw .

YANBU - my 7yo goes to bed at about 9pm, he is healthy and happy and doing well, he goes to afterschool AND does gymnastics and karate and seems to enjoy them all. My DCs see after school club as very relaxing and a great time to play with their friends, not as an 'activity'.

I think 7pm is ridiculously early.

DS (age 9) gets home at 18.15 three nights per week. He eats, bathes, watches 30 mins TV and is in bed at 19.30, lights out at 20.00.

Greythorne

In answer to what causes anxiety in my dd:

it seems to be trying to prevent dangers for her and everyone around her, so like doing a full risk assessment before undertaking anything.

and it is also caused by a change in routine.

Thanks for the fantastic explanation Rhinos for how you understand the anxiety to work and that it's the change causing the risk assessments. It's hard because she will tell you she is not anxious over anything, so therefore cannot explain what or why she is anxious at a given time.

In answer to when does the music lessons take place:

during school time.

anothermadame

But if your kds are going to bed at 9pm / 10pm / whenever and thriving, then fine. Don't change a thing.

But the OP's little girl is struggling (anxiety, seeing therapist) and so relaxing the schedule, having an earlier bedtime and not insisting on so much music practice is all rather basic and reasonable.

I wonder if the head did categorically instruct them that they must do this. or did she comment that some people seem tired and 7 or 7.30 would be a good time?

A bit daft anyway because children aren't generally in control of their bedtime at 7, except to protest it! She should have put something in the newsletter.

I do agree, though, that your dd's anxiety is more the issue than an ill-considered announcement by the Head. DS would have been totally exhausted if he did activities until 7pm 3 nights a week in the week.

Maybe move the music practice to the w/e and frame music as fun, not work? And make it fun, too.

Good luck.

I was an anxious kid and tbh I think your daughter is doing far too much. She needs wind down time, in the quiet. I ended up getting terrible insomnia as I got older. I would have been a lot worse if I had all those things to keep up with.

Also 9pm is too late ime on a school night for a 7 year old.

Sounds like your all being pulled this way and that. HT says bedtime needs to be a different time, music teacher says she has to practise 5 days a week. She wants to do gym, you want homework and so on. Something needs to give and I think you are great for letting the bedtime get a bit earlier and see how she does.

It's all very well encouraging sensible bedtimes but I'd say that this HT was going well beyond the bounds of reasonability. Especially since many children of 7 will interpret this sort of instruction as an unbreakable command.

I liked my dcs to be in bed at a reasonable time but their sleeping patterns were wildly different. At 7 ds1 would have taken himself off to bed by 7.30 and been very grumpy indeed if required to stay up much later. ds2, however, never needed anywhere near as much sleep (and still doesn't as an adult) so a rigid 7 for 7.30 bedtime would have been pointless since he wouldn't have been tired.

I'd have thought it made more sense (and would certainly be more reasonable) to deal, individually, with any chronically tired child who is clearly exhausted and whose parents may need support in encouraging an appropriate bedtime rather than attempt to tackle individual issues by dictating a bedtime regime for every child in that age-group.

Greythorne, you are right about bedtimes depending on the child, but I guess I was responding to the initial question of whether a headteacher should comment on bedtime, and I think 7am is far too early for most 7yos.

But yes, the anxiety is the worrying thing here, and it is true that tiredness could play a factor in that.

IIWY I would discuss with the therapist whether a less hectic and scheduled week and more sleep might help. The other observation is that your DD chooses these activities - well, yes, but
you might have to un-choose. I have found the hard way that giving my anxious DS too much freedom to decide actually makes him more anxious.

I agree with MoS. Def depends on the child. I would like to meet the person who could get my son asleep before 8.15pm without an almighty row or knockout gas. He's 4. And has been a bedtime refusenik since day 1. Won't get up either before 7 so very much a night person... have tried getting his internal clock shifted back an hour but even assuming we get in at 5.30pm, after I've cooked him supper, he's taken preschooler-time-ages eating it and straight to bath, it's still flipping 8pm before I've finished the libraryful of books he insists I read.

If I could do one book like 'normal' parents seem to do, I'd be done by 7.30! I don't want to cut back drastically as at the moment I have a little boy who is very engaged with reading and stories and I don't want to disengage him! No or very limited TV time; he plays, usually with Lego or colouring while I cook. So I do have a lot of sympathy with other parents who don't have evenings either!

(He is better than he used to be. At one point we were still having sulky timeouts at 9pm. 1-2-3 magic has indeed worked magic.)

right, let's see if my slightly OT post kills the thread like I usually manage!

It sounds like your dd tells you what's going to happen a lot of the time- she's chosen several hobbies, she tells you when she's practising, when she's going to bed and when she tells you something's upset her you try and change the world around her. When she gets anxious you do too. She needs you to contain her and help her to deal with things, not indulge her. She's 7, she needs you to manage her, how can she know what's good or not for her? You decide.

It will take time but I work with children with mh problems and they can feel so much better over time. She needs you to be strong and involved and help her to deal with stressors as they arise, by supporting her through them, not by trying to stop the big bad world. With support you can reduce the checking etc but it will take time.

Also my ds is 7, lights out at 7.30 every night, reads about 3 times a week, does 5 mins spelling and some informal maths etc in snatches a week, ballet and swimming at weekends and 1 club on a weds. Rest of the time he plays.

When I was at school I was told to practise clarinet everyday and my mum signed my book to prove it. I won a prize for doing it... Turned out I was the only one who'd taken it literally!

Feel confident enough to say no to your daughter and make decisions to leave music practice or reading if it's not suitable for her on certain nights. Your world won't collapse and neither will hers.

butterkist again - not taking a pop - but if a 7yo is having high anxiety and thinking about dangers and scenarios - then there must be something to trigger this. It's not normal 7yo behaviour.

changes in routine ??? im not going to say it out loud - but someone else will come along with a diagnosis suggestion.

Personally I suggest you STOP and take full look at your collective family life... it ...is ...not...normal...for ...the ....way... your 7yo...is ...behaving.

Neurotic 7yos learn that behaviour

FWIW - my Y6 has just begun formal piano lessons - 10 mins a night is his practice time .... granted he's only just begun BUT when things become obsessive or a chore - then you, THE PARENT have to step in and place limitations. I don't enforce practice, it may be done, it may not - and hes on G&T already for music and dance....so it's something he can pick up and put down as he see's fit. And yes, he's autistic.

My dd usually sleeps between 8.30 and 9pm, regardless of what time she goes to bed. It just seems to be the set point at which she sleeps, though sometimes she will lie awake for even longer, till 9.30 or 10pm. She doesn't actually need to get up until 8am but usually wakes up much earlier.

I consulted the teacher about this last year on a couple of occasions, as I was concerned about how little sleep she was getting, and thought that she might be showing signs of tiredness in school. The teacher looked surprised and said that, on the contrary, dd was typically one of the most alert in the class. I also asked our GP, who assured me that all kids were different and that dd would sleep earlier if she needed to. So 9pm isn't necessarily a terrible bedtime for a 7yo, as some kids genuinely need less sleep.

Having said that, OP, your dd's schedule does sound quite busy. My dd does activities on most days too, she is a "joiner" by nature and thrives on being busy. I think that's quite hard to understand if you have kids who are easily tired. dd is a bit like the duracell bunny - she could just keep going for ages and never seems to run out of energy. However, her latest activity on a school night finishes at 6pm, which makes life a bit easier. I think we would struggle to fit in homework and music practice on top of this!

As for after school club, we don't use it as DH, my parents and I share the pick-ups between us. However, I sometimes collect a friend's two children and it looks distinctly chilled to me! In fact, I think it looks lovely! :)

I agree the HT shouldn't generalise and impose the same bedtime for all. It would perhaps have been better to send a letter saying teachers have noticed some children are tired at school and a reminder of the importance of a good nights sleep. Especially when a lot of children take whatever the teacher/HT/ music teacher quite literally.

The OP could have been written by me! My DD (8) was told in reception that she needed to go to bed early by the HT. Even now, 3 years on, she still gets worked up if she isn't in bed about 8 (we can sometimes push it to 8.15 if she has an activity). If she isn't asleep by 9 she gets so upset it can take an hour or more to calm her enough to actually get to sleep.

She doesn't suffer with any other anxiety as such, but does take teachers word as law. I wish teachers could see that in trying to improve those with little routine at home, they can have a detrimental effect on children like ours.

OP, have you considered a childminder as an alternate to after-school club? Only suggesting as at a CMs, your DD could have her tea, which is one less thing to fit in so late, and also have playtime with the kiddies there.

I've spoken to psychiatrist regarding:

a) changing school - no she's very happy where she is and the school say she is academically coping and no problem within school

b) reducing hours - not necessary she's enjoying the time

When I say she decides I do give her options, it was something the psychiatrist encouraged us to do, to give options to enable her to feel there are aspects of her life that she can decide on.

So for example:

Re activities she could do 2 activities a week and the choices were from: brownies, swimming, gymnastics and art. She chose gymnastics and art.

Re music practice, she does 10 mins a day per instrument (3 instruments) 5 times a week, every week we choose on a Tuesday (this is the day of music lessons), what 5 practice days she wants that week, and she has so far chosen Mon-Fri. Music is relaxation to her, and she'll often do "practice" at weekends but that is not "official" practice (her words).

One other thing the psychatrist has said because she is not trying to avoid any of her fears, or any of the anxiety, that nothing should be stopped because she is facing it all head on.