To think that smacking a child is the same as smacking an adult

[Elderberries]

If I came on here and said I had lost it with my partner and got so angry that I had slapped him a couple of times people would say (and rightly so) that I was way out of line and should do something about my temper ect....they would probably be even more outraged if I said I had hit my wife.

If I come on here and say I lost my temper and slapped my child I think I would get a different reaction. Am I being unreasonable to think that actually hitting a child is domestic violence? If it's not OK for your partner why would be it OK to chastise a child in this way. Is it because they are small and helpless and have no representation? Wasn't that the position of women not so very long ago when a husband had every right to hit his wife.

I'm saying this because I did get angry last night and slapped my 2.5 year old on the leg and I feel terrible. I've never done it before and I am against it in principle. I just lost control because he wouldn't stay still when I was trying to change a very very soiled nappy and I didn't want it to get everywhere.

I do think it is domestic abuse. I do think it is wrong. I am never going to do that again. Never. Go on tell me I'm wrong.

Right, so now we are hitting those who are not capable of reason, but ARE capable of learning, (in order to turn them into reasonable, well rounded adults), and we are not bothering with trying to hit those not capable of learning.

And even though they are not capable of reasoning, we are expecting them to learn something more nuanced and complicated than "If I do X, then someone will hit me" .

Can someone explain what is it exactly we expect them to learn from the smack again?

Bennifer

Fair point. I wasn't smacked, but, I like you don't think violence is acceptable. I'm not sure either of our own personal experiences can prove the point either way!

I think that parents who smack as a concerted form of calm, well thought out discipline could easily achieve their aims without the smacking.

I think those who smack in anger, at the end of their tether may try to convince themselves it was legitimate and intentional, but that loss of control is the more worrying ( as I said, I've done it myself, and realised where it could easily lead)

oh and the other time I smacked a child it wasn't even my child! (my non-smacker statement is actually a load of old rubbish. I am a smacker and a liar)..

But I think it was the right thing to do. When I was an au pair (20 years ago in France) I looked after one lovely but very, very indulged and naughty 8 year old. One day I came into the living room and he was climbing up the dresser, like it was a ladder. I shouted at him to come down and of course he didn't. I came over and grabbed him and tried to get him off but the more I pulled the tighter he clung on. I was convinced he was going to bring the dresser down on top of himself and kill himself. So I smacked him on the leg, really, really hard. To shock him. It worked, and he let go.

what they learn from the smack is "STOP". It's quite useful for that - see my example below.

Do you sit your husband on the naughty step, or is that unacceptable as well? Because children and adults are exactly the same, of course. Logic fail, YABU.

Edith

You've addressed my point. The smack is not the part that works. It is the part that is morally suspect and may be damaging to the child. Get their attention another way

Michaela neither of my children is biddable.

Most of us who parent do lose control sometimes. Loss of control in itself is not really so awful. Who hasn't just had enough sometimes?

A loss of temper and a smack I can't really see as that much worse than shrieking liek a banshee and terrify the DCs. We've all done that sometimes and not been proud of ourselves but it doesn't make me a child abuser. I would hesitate to say sometone who smacked in that situation was a child abuser either.

Obviously loss of control leading to more than smacking is a problem. Just like if your shrieking turned to verbal abuse.

I never used the term abuser.

Isn't it worse because you are hitting someone smaller - not an equal. Someone who can't protect themselves. This is commonly known as bullying.

I also think there are plenty of crap parents who don't smack, and plenty of good parents who do. I just think the good parents are good for reasons oth than e smacking. I think smacking is wrong.

Margo that was an emergency. You did it to prevent further injury to him. It was his parents job to have parented him such that he didn't do silly things like that.

Agree with your post of 16.59 margo

"Most of us who parent do lose control sometimes ... Obviously loss of control leading to more than (occasional) smacking is a problem"

This topic comes up every week.

DCs need boundaries, sometimes a quick slap is the quickest way of drawing them in a way they remember.

Vowing never to hit them and doing it real rage is far worse. So is endless shouting at them while they learn to ignore you.

I'm sure there are perfect parents who never hit their DCs. Sadly I just know very stressed ones who wonder why my DD will go to her room when she's being impossible and theirs won't.

startail - I am not sure if I have understood - are you saying that those stressed parents should have used smacking as discipline? Or learn other ways to parent that give them authority withou shouting or smacking?

I'd say that my DCs will go to their room despite not having had boundaries enforced by smacking. My approach has been to encourage the idea of calming down, getting control of yourself, not being entitled to hurt others in word or deed with your temper, and then talking about it.

OK, so here is my take on it all.

I was smacked as a child. I used to have no problem with smacking. Then I had DS. He is exceptionally challenging and I smacked him once or twice. Then, one day, when he was cross with me because I wasn't doing his bidding, he hit me. I said " We DON"T hit. Hitting hurts." and my DS said "But mummy, you hit me when I am naughty. You are being naughty so I am hitting you".

Needless to say I no longer -hit-smack. DS is still incredibly challenging and there are many times when I have to walk away as I have a dreadful temper as does he and we just end up yelling at each other.

However, the boy has the memory of an elephant. A couple of weeks ago he hit DD. He and I did 'time in' in his bedroom so he could calm down. After he was calm we talked about hitting and I mentioned that we don't hit etc. His reply was that I hit him. I have not smacked him for over 2 years. That was the point I had to tell my DS I had made the wrong choice in the past but I knew it was wrong and I no longer did it. I then apologised. He still hits his sister. I wish he didn't. I wish I had never laid a hand on him. I regret it every day.

A very difficult subject,

YABU to think that smacking a child is the same as an adult.

A duty of care extends to a child in your care and at some point that duty might extend to what jerry said (a last resort or he will throw his sister under a train) which we maybe condone but understand (and the law justifies to a certain extent and calls it "lawful chastisement" in certain circumstances). That duty of care extends to not exposing them to harm, from themselves, from others and the environment.

You do not have that duty (in the main) towards adults nor can you "lawfully chastise them". However you can defend yourself from them (again the law can justify this "self defence" if your actions are "reasonable" in the circumstances) this would not be something you would be justified in using towards a child.

Elder. This is one incident of violence, you have admitted it on here (big step) and have resolved to do something about it. You have rationalised why you did it and come up with the answer that you were wrong. And I think it was wrong- you lost your temper. You are hurting far more than the child.

It is unlikely that you are an "domestic abuser" from what you have said. Ask yourself, do you indulge in a range of behaviours to control and dominate? Unlikely, from what you said.

There is a child, probably living in your town, who has never been smacked, yet has not got enough to eat, is left on his own whilst mum goes out, is never washed, is deprived of every human dignity, is cold, is told that he is scum and lives in a place (not a home) with no comfort, no food in the cupboards and no love.

I think that child would swap one smacked bottom when having a nappy changed that he might never remember, that never happened again, for years of neglect.

Good luck and love your son, he will forget the smack.

both are totally wrong and i agree that to smack a child for some reason is acceptable but to smack another adult is not, it makes no sense as both are violent acts and the only time violence should ever be ok is when it is used in self defence. why is it ok to humiliate a child, when you last out you at that point have lost respect for the other persons feelings be they an adult or a child

ridiculous argument i hit my child to protect themselves, no you hit your child because it was either a knee jerk reaction and you lost control or you cannot be arsed to teach them why it is dangerous, or they never did xyz again, well no becasue they did not want to be hit again it is humilating, and it makes peopel feel bad it does not make anyone feel good about themselves. hitting is often the easy lazy way out it can never ever be justified

freudianSlipper i wonder if you can read my post above and explain to me how smacking my son is the easy way out, after all the advice etc I have sought out and strategies we implement to avoid these situations / teach him to do otherwise?

being put on the naughty step is also humiliating. so is being told off. the only reason behaviour changes is because the child does not want the consequences of that behaviour, whether its deciding not to poke the pencil in their own eye because it hurts, choosing not to throw a toy in anger because it breaks, or being nice to their sister because they get a time out if they don't.

Smacking is not always a knee jerk reaction or a sign of lost control. Sometimes it is a deliberate, calm choice from the options available.

Michaela - I regret not replying to the body of your post. I only picked up on the bit about my children being biddable.

I can't really give you an answer, as what you are describing is outside my experience. You have my sympathies.

OriginalJamie - no problem it was a bit of a tongue in cheek comment- no toddler is easy but statistically some will be easier than others. It struck me that most comments are about the parents abilities and very few about the child's character. The parent is the adult and is responsible, so of course the focus is right, but some people have little angels who sometimes get a little cross, and others have little demons who could take down Mike Tyson in a fair fight whilst still smearing the wall with poo.

Interestingly the advice i've had from the professionals has all been consistent - that the important thing is to pick your battles and to make sure when you do take a stand that you don't cave (thus teaching that tantrums work and that really nasty violent self harming ones work best), rather than the method you employ to take that stand. If no means "maybe but only if i think you're really upset" then you are only prolonging the agony for both of you. if no means "no" and you only say it when you really really mean "no" then they will learn sooner that head bashing doesn't pay dividends.

I don't agree with smacking.

However i do know that you can do much more damage to a child with daily sarcasm, shouting and passive agressiveness, which is what i witness parents doing.

Smacking a child, isn't the same as smacking an adult.

Adults are entitled to autonomy. Children need protection and guidance. They need their carers to tell them what to do. One adult hasn't got the right to tell another adult what to do.

What disipline method is used to get the child to do as they are told, is a different matter.

There are more effective ways to parent,but you cannot blame parents for not knowing them.

I haven't read the whole thread, but for me, a single smack is stop after warnings (I always say this is your last warning do you understand ?).
Then if the last warning is ignored, one smack (behind). Very rare but IMO justified.

DS was being lairy, in a shopping mall, mucking about with DD but not in a nasty way.They used to have a habit of walking in front of me, even though I made them walk together, or either side, not to criss-cross. (I did tell DS that if he tripped me up and I fell on him, he'd come off worse )
He ran straight in front of a very unsteady elderly man on 2 crutches who was coming out of a shop.
He didn't bump him, and OK it would've been an accident, but if the man had fallen it would have been devastating for him. And if my DS had caused this with his stupid behaviour...
On this occasion , there wasn't time to shout or pull him. I could see it all about to hit the fan. I grabbed DS, gave him a single smack. (BTW both DCs had been needling each other all day)

I explained to DS after what consequence his actions could've had.He would've walked away, the man probably not.

This was about 3 years ago. I can Hand On Heart say my DC are nice, well mannered children. I don't shout/swear at them but I am strict.

MichaelaS while i have sympathy for you and your son i cannot say well it is ok for you and not for others it is something i strong disagree with in any situation. what happens when a child with sn becoems an adult and is still harming themselves

and i do not personally use naughty step or time out methods for dealing with ds who has been at times an extremely challenging toddler (though not on the same level) toddlers are and their inability to understand or have empathy is part of growing up and learning i agree with you they too can be humiliating

i have a few friends with children who have sn, and discussing this subject with them all but one felt that smacking a child was of any use in the long run

"sometimes a quick slap is the quickest way of drawing them in a way they remember."

i love the way people use the term 'quick slap' as if because it's only a 'quick' one it's less violent. when in reality there is no such thing as a quick slap. they are all quick. no-one slaps slowly. a slap is a slap. calling it a quick slap may make you feel less bad about doing it but it's no different to a 'normal' slap.