To think that smacking a child is the same as smacking an adult

[Elderberries]

If I came on here and said I had lost it with my partner and got so angry that I had slapped him a couple of times people would say (and rightly so) that I was way out of line and should do something about my temper ect....they would probably be even more outraged if I said I had hit my wife.

If I come on here and say I lost my temper and slapped my child I think I would get a different reaction. Am I being unreasonable to think that actually hitting a child is domestic violence? If it's not OK for your partner why would be it OK to chastise a child in this way. Is it because they are small and helpless and have no representation? Wasn't that the position of women not so very long ago when a husband had every right to hit his wife.

I'm saying this because I did get angry last night and slapped my 2.5 year old on the leg and I feel terrible. I've never done it before and I am against it in principle. I just lost control because he wouldn't stay still when I was trying to change a very very soiled nappy and I didn't want it to get everywhere.

I do think it is domestic abuse. I do think it is wrong. I am never going to do that again. Never. Go on tell me I'm wrong.

at least with domestic abuse, you have an adult witness, if there's violence you'll have bruises, etc. I think the point that I'm making is that "smacking" that I had as a child on a few occasions (and akin to the ultimate deterrent), is not violence

Ok im being hoenst i used to smack my children on the back of the hand as a deterrant or on the bum when i was cross , and It doesnt work imo I stopped when dd1 was 7 and it was the best decision i ever made , I didnt smack all the time but she would push my buttons she was very challenging and instead of trying to discipline and punish her in a positive way i would smack her as a quick fix , I dont think a smack on the bum is assault though I never smacked in anger , but i do think there is other ways to discipline them ,

Why is it ridiculous mojito? If it didn't cause harm to anyone, what's so bad about it?

Bennifer - because we don't know how those people would have turned out if they hadn't been smacked. Perhaps they wouldn't be being violent with their own children? I think that causing pain is violence btw.

I don't think it's hard work to understand that different verbs have different meanings.

It's clear that those who are trying to find a synonym where there is not one in ordinary parlance, still have some way to go in their attempt to alter the lexicon.

One of my (adult) family members has learning difficulties. He probably has the understanding and communication skills of a 2 year old, even though he is a fully grown man.

You can't always reason with him, and it is possible he might do something dangerous, or naughty, just like a toddler might. Some of his peers have even less sense of boundaries or danger.
I'd be very shocked if anyone thought it would be remotely OK to "smack" any of these adults, and I personally can't see much difference between that and smacking a child.

i have worked with children and now have children myself.
i never smacked or physically disciplines the kids i worked with, i have done to my own kids when i've been at the end of my tether.

what would happen to a childcare professional if they smacked or shouted at a child for some of the reasons some parents above have mentioned?

I don't think smacking a child is the quite the same as smacking an adult -. You are very rarely, if ever, in sole charge of an adult - at least not without there being some kind of reason like disability and I don't think anyone would argue that we should use physical force to make disabled adults behave how we want them to. But I can understand why parents may sometimes reach a point where they don't know how else to react. If you're loosing your temper with an adult you can nearly always remove yourself for a bit, or leave them behind if you need to go somewhere etc. You can't with small children. Sometimes you do just need them to do things or not do things.

I do agree it's as wrong as smacking an adult and to me it isn't an acceptable discipline tool.

It's barbaric and wrong, I think myself and a lot of other posters have described the "whys"

Exactly CalicoCathy. Very good point.

Going sign off for a little while. Back later to carry on.

Up thread someone said the justifications lies in the lack of cognitive abilities of the child. Does that mean we can use smacking anytime we're trying to reason with someone who has less reasoning skills i.e. those with dementia, learning difficulties and so on?

Headinhands: are those really comparable. The expectation in all we do in bringing up a child (whatever sanctions one might choose to use to underpin it) is that the child is learning to be an adult and benefits from dscipline (in the proper "disciple" sense). With those not capable of learning, or indeed in a state of decline of facilities, it is totally different situation.

And interventions are made, and some of those such as drug regimes are definitely not suitable for growing children (another significant reason why this is a false comparison).

OP - I totally agree with you, and I made the mistake of smacking mine on a couple of occasions.

EdithWeston I don't think it is hysterical to call smacking hitting. I think it is obfuscation to think a smack is not a hit.

If a child hit another child, we would not say "don't smack", we'd say 9quite rightly) "don't hit" (meaning: "don't use physical aggression to warn, discipline or act out your anger")

Okay, so I assume there's no cut off point when smacking your kids is okay as some take a lot longer to mature than others?

*not okay

To be frank there are loads of things we do to children that we don't do to adults, does grounding constitute imprisonment? Should it?

Not a good analogy. You don't put adults on the naughty step either...

I'm not a smacker but I think it is legitimate in certain circs. Same way I would send my child to their room but a DP would be quite surprised if I did that.

Edith - if the intention is to teach someone who is capable of learning, then, I would suggest that whatever your intention, what you are actually teaching when you hit is:

When someone does something you don't want then to do, then it's OK to smack them

When someone frightens you or makes you angry, it is OK to smack them

OriginalJamie,

Do many children "learn" those lessons? I certainly don't go around as an adult thinking it's right to hit people that do don't do what I want them to do, but I was smacked as a child, and don't consider for a second that I was "abused".

." You don't put adults on the naughty step either..."

my children have made me sit on the naughty step for being naughty.

I have smacked once - DS1 was about 21 months and he was kicking me as hard as he could in the stomach while I tried to change his dirty nappy. I was pregnant with DS2, there was no-one else in the house. A smack stopped him in his tracks, reasoning wasn't working, and I couldn't let him smear poo everywhere. I wish I hadn't needed to smack him, but I still think in that set of circumstances it was the right thing to do.

OJ: The use of physical punishments (including subjugation on eg naughty step, restraint, picking up and moving) is not incompatible with teaching and learning. There is no need to set up a false dichotomy.

My view is that a smack is to gain attention, and the learning comes from what you say afterwards.

It's not hitting, nor hurting, nor part of a "punishment" in our house. And it was but one option.

Before I had children I used to think smacking was wrong. Now I am a parent to a very headstrong language impaired toddler who has little sense of danger and struggles to contain his emotions especially the negative ones such as anger. I have changed my views. I reserve smacking for when he is being physically violent to me, and only after I have tried verbal reasoning, distraction and other tools. I also use physical force against him when he needs medical intervention that he cannot understand is for his benefit. He is very strong, and yesterday it took 3 adults to hold him down whilst he had an eye examination (he had eye surgery as a baby and needs regular checkups to ensure his retinas are not deteriorating).

Parents who don't smack often think its all about training the others in better parenting skills. In my opinion a lot is down to the character of the child too - maybe the children of non-smackers are simply more biddable easygoing characters?

After taking all the advice i can from educational psychologists, occupational therapists, childcare professionals, parents of other special needs kids and the combined wisdom of mumsnet, I am still convinced there is a place for smacking in the disciplinary regime, at least for some children and in some situations. This morning our OT told me "you are doing everything we could recommend, I have no other strategies to suggest to you". Well, i'm very willing to learn new techniques if they are available, but after going out of my way to do this I'm still the one at home with the toddler scratching my face, kicking me, throwing anything he can get his hands on, deliberately banging his head on the floor and screaming like a banshee until he collapses from exhaustion and passes out. If a smack after 5 minutes will stop the meltdown and noone else has any good ideas then I think its my call whether the next 25+ minutes of (self inflicted) head bashing and breath holding are any less violent / emotionally damaging / morally reprihensible than a firm slap on the legs.

And OP, I have done what you did (having said I've never smacked). It was like the singinggirl situation. I don't know what else I would have done to avoid poo horror. I suppose the difference between us is that I don't think it has a negative impact on the child as long as the child is loved and cared for and it's an occasional thing.

I know people always use this argument but it's really true in my case. I was smacked as a child and it was fine, reasonable. I don't hold it against my parents for a moment. I think what they did was perfectly ok and I'm perfectly ok.

Ilovetopost do you have 1 child?

I only ask because the only time I ever hit DD1 was once DD2 was born in exasperation and avoiding danger Even then I remember thinking this would never have happened with only one child.

I am still firmly against smacking/ hitting children, but not as hardline as I was- ie. I can't say I never have and never will hit a child, because I now have.