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Original poster

Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

557 replies

cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 10:46

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 12:53

We have a right to know Trois' arse? Shock

When did the law change on that? Grin

CoteDAzur · 18/02/2012 12:53

As others have said, it is none of your business.

I have worked in a highly male dominated company (finance) full of alpha-males going out together rather frequently, as well. Sometimes I went with them and had a couple of drinks after work. To some other (naughtier) expeditions, I didn't go (wasn't invited, naturally), which was perfectly fine. It was None Of My Business if they had lap dances or picked up girls at some bar.

If you were in a female dominated work environment, and these other girls liked to go out, get drunk, and sleep with strangers, it would STILL be None Of Your Business.

WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 12:54

Nyac you have missed the point of my posts spectacularly but don't worry about it Lol.

CoteDAzur · 18/02/2012 12:54

"my post asks how other women might feel. Not if it's any of my business"

That is how we feel: In your place, we would realize that it is none of our business and NOT try to have some feelings about our colleagues' recreational activities outside of work.

HTH.

WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 12:56

I really don't want to know the details, but I do have a negative view of men who use prostitutes, and it does creep me out to think I am probably sitting alongside some of them... which I almost certainly am, even if the Amsterdam thing hadn't arisen if 1 in 10 men have been to a prostitute

You don't travel by bus much I take it?

Original poster
cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 12:58

"If you were in a female dominated work environment, and these other girls liked to go out, get drunk, and sleep with strangers, it would STILL be None Of Your Business."

No, but I might take a private, unexpressed view in RL, on the morality of such behaviour - or is morality no longer fashionable?

OP posts:
Gay40 · 18/02/2012 12:58

I work with about 200 people and I genuinely do not give a flying fuck what they get up to in their private life unless it impinges on our work situation.
They may attend BNP meetings or troll the streets of major cities for prostitutes every night, but unless they bring those attitudes into the workplace with racist or sexist language then it really, really isn't ANYONE'S business. They are paid to work, not to cater to the moral viewpoint of other staff.

FidoFellDown · 18/02/2012 12:59

"Gay/straight/bi/practicing faith/dogging/swinging/nipple clamps/knitting/HIV/ttc what ever."

None of those have any impact on their relations with the OP, though. I'm gay and I once worked with a homophobic woman. She made doing my job very difficult as she excluded me from memos about meetings etc. Eventually, she was given a warning from our boss and it subsided. But if the OP is in a similar situation, with her being a woman and working with misogynists, she should know. I would feel uncomfortable.

If anything, she would know not to be disparaging about men who visit prostitutes in front of them.

FreudianSlipper · 18/02/2012 13:00

i think the op has the right to work in an environment where she does not have to hear others talk about women in a way that offends her

some may not think talk of visiting strippers and what went on in these clubs/nights out/trip as offensive i personally do as it is always derogatory, the women are spoken about as objects some may just view it as boys talk Hmm others do not and should not have to put up with it

FidoFellDown · 18/02/2012 13:00

Worral, the intention of the link (as far as I can see) was not what stag-dos get up to in foreign cities but the impact that they have. If the OPs colleagues are going to strip clubs/prostitutes, that is what they are contributing to. Only she can really make the call on whether she thinks that they are going to visit strip clubs. We can just say that certain types of men (as her colleagues are from the description) are more likely to visit strip clubs/prostitutes.

Original poster
cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 13:00

Strangers on buses with whom I don't need to have a working relationship have no impact on the place I spend 40-plus hours a week!

OP posts:
troisgarcons · 18/02/2012 13:02

You may laugh but in my experience, radical knitters are the worst. Oh yes. Subversive in their mocking of non-knitters. nods knowingly

Original poster
cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 13:02

I'm going out now ... back later!

OP posts:
mumblechum1 · 18/02/2012 13:02

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest, possibly because I've been to Amsterdam umpteen times and although we wandered around the red light district on the first night, spent the rest of the time hanging out in the sunshine, pootling along on canal boats, having a laugh in the coffee shops

I'm thinking of sending my ds and his mate there for ds's 18th birthday, does that mean he's a crazed mysoginist bastard too? (he doesn't know I'm thinking of it btw, it just seems a nice place to go for a safe, relaxing and fun couple of days, and it's cheaper than NYC)

Gay40 · 18/02/2012 13:03

cathkidstonrefusnik, But you just said "I do have a negative view of men who use prostitutes, and it does creep me out to think I am probably sitting alongside some of them... which I almost certainly am, even if the Amsterdam thing hadn't arisen if 1 in 10 men have been to a prostitute."

Statistically you are also sitting next to a child abuser. But don't worry about it. Statistically speaking there's one in your family already.

CoteDAzur · 18/02/2012 13:04

Unlike friends, colleagues are not people you can choose according to your standards of morality. If you are judgmental by nature, I suppose no overwhelming consensus on an internet forum is going to change you. Still, try to keep your opinions to yourself.

mumblechum1 · 18/02/2012 13:04

Oh, yes, and statistically one in ten of them is black.

And one in ten of them is gay.

youareallwrong · 18/02/2012 13:06

FreudianSlipper if they do that in the workplace they are at risk of being disciplined though. The fact is the OP says that she has faced this and it was dealt with.

As others have said, if they talk about 'exploits' in the office then they are breaking the rules. If they don't, they aren't.

Incidently, were she to ask them whether they paid for sex whilst on their holiday as suggested by Nyac earlier in the thread, actually she could in theory be in breech of rules herself...

WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 13:06

Strangers on buses with whom I don't need to have a working relationship have no impact on the place I spend 40-plus hours a week!

Just as the fact your co-workers have not discussed their Stag do plans in front of you has no impact on the place you spend 40-plus hours a week?

Seriously, you've got what you quite rightly wanted by the sound of it....your co-workers are respectfully not discussing their Stag do plans.

But it seems that's not good enough for you...so now you're sitting there wondering if they intend to shag prostitutes...to the extend that you've actually started a thread on the internet Confused

I really think you need to focus on something else or you'll wear yourself out.

Original poster
cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 13:08

Such is the nature of my workplace there is no-one black or openly gay...the homophobic comments I've challenged have been far, far worse than the sexist ones. Really going out now!

OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 18/02/2012 13:11

"No, but I might take a private, unexpressed view in RL, on the morality of such behaviour - or is morality no longer fashionable?"

You have no right to inflict your view of morality on to the sexual behaviour of others, if it is within legal bounderies.

As said in my ealier post, you can insist on not hearing certain conversations in work, that is all, but you need to get over the fact that people you work with have different values to you.

You may not be the on ethat is right and i am sure there are things that you do that they don't agree with.

Gay40 · 18/02/2012 13:12

Well, when you get back, you might give some thought to how you can rectify that male, pale and stale (and straight) situation you have at your workplace. Because I'm going to guess it doesn't match the demographics of the UK.
It's a much more worthwhile topic to put your energies into.

FreudianSlipper · 18/02/2012 13:21

but there should not be the threat of discipline; they should respect women, all women enough not to talk about women in such a way

she does not feel they do, i get how she feels i have felt the same and glad to be out of that environment

but do agree that what others do out of work is up to them but attitudes can have an impact in a work environment, transference of people feelings can even if they felt are hidden have an impact. take for example a bnp member (and i mentioned member because a member is a racist) can they really respect a black or asian manager, can it have no impact in taking orders from someone they have no respect for because they are not white i do not think it can

Flisspaps · 18/02/2012 13:26

It is possible to go to Amsterdam and enjoy it without the 'sex' element.

DH went with his Dad and his uncle and took his Grandad there for his Grandad's 80th birthday. They had an absolute ball and the only sex industry element was taking a walk through the red light district in the early hours, practically sprinting through the streets as they were being grabbed by women trying to entice them into their windows!

As most of the others on this thread have said, it's none of your business.

takingiteasy · 18/02/2012 13:32

My DH took me for my 19th birthday many moons ago. We smoked a lot, walked round the red light area in a daze, went to a sex show and laughed through it, went to the sex museum. Not very cultured at all really. He's went with friends a couple of times since and is planning his 30th there next year.

He hasn't and isn't going to pay for sex, he's too bloody tight, and just wouldn't do that.

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