Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

I am afraid it isn't any of your business as most have said

If there is inappropriate talk in the office, then yes, you are right to tell them you don't want to hear it and enforce that, but what they do outside of work isn't even a teeny tiny little bit your business.

FreudianSlipper I get what you are saying, but equally I do think there are so many aspects to life that the same thing can apply to. Its a matter that has been dealt with and she knows she has support from work and thats what she should be focussing on. She still feels uncomfortable... but I'm not sure what else she expects and I do think thats up to her to come to terms with. What are the colleagues supposed to do? Not go on the stag do, because she feels uncomfortable about it and thinks they may shag prostitutes (they may not). At what point do you draw the line?

There are hundreds of situations that might arise in the workplace. Some legal, some not so. All of which can affect respect (which is generally why what you do outside work is best left outside work to avoid the worst clashes of culture/morality/politics and why it shouldn't be your right to know about others).

If work hierachy isn't observed it becomes a disciplinary. I don't think its ever the place of an employer to police opinion. Its only to protect them as best they can within the law.

You don't need to pay for it anyway, there's usually plenty of men/women looking for a shag. Allegedly

I love Amsterdam, Van Gogh museum, sailing on the canals, meeting interesting people and eating decent food. When I went we (3 women) didn't try drugs or even go to the red light district. We did drink copious amounts though. I can't wait to go back.

I think there may be one or two of your workmates goes to see one of the ladies but I doubt they all will?

Right. I think we work in similar environments. I'm on a trading floor ithe city with 20 odd men. All very mouthy, opinionated, at times rude but all married. On work weekends away the odd one has been known to sneak off to a strip show or even sleep with a prostitute...yep one of the married ones. This doesn't bother me at all. They respect me, they know I am smart and a hard worker, just as they are. They value my opinions. Just because they like titties in tassels doesn't change that. I don't let their behaviour cloud my judgement of their work. That is the only relationship I have with them - workmates. If they were family or friends then of course it would bother me more. But all we want and expect of each other is work place respect and results.

As for Amsterdam. Have you ever been? It is one of my favourite cities. Stunning., fun, liberated. My DH has been there on a stag. H returned without having slept with anyone. Yeah they saw a stripper or two, but guys do that on stags in the UK! They mostly got drunk, stoned on brownies and had a lot of fun.

Every time we've visited a sex show in Amsterdam the audience has been 50-50 with groups of women as well as men.
We only spent an hour watching because it seemed to be the same acts doing a 10 minute stint and there was only 6 acts.
It was a bit surreal in a way because it was just like sitting at the cinema but wasn't as dark.

'Maybe she wants to assess exactly how much they hate women.'

Arf. Bit rich coming from someone who identifies with a movement that likens shagging to sitting on a hand grenade.

I will identify with the majority view on this thread. It's none of your business.

Surely its not your place to judge and none of your business either what your colleagues do in their private time?

sigmundia

if it's done right I'd agree with the analogy :)

What movement likens shagging to sitting on a hand grenade? v weird thing to say

Radical feminism.

So do radical feminists explode or something when their DH's pull their cocks out of them?

Radical feminists believe that PIV leads to death via pregnancy and childbirth, therefore all men are calculating murderers. No really.

For possibly the first time in my life I'm speechless if that's true

It's completely true, I promise you.

Surely maybe two people in the world think that and they are clearly as mad as a box of frogs though?

ahhhh that explains A LOT.

That PIV thread would be HILAROUS, if it wasn't so depressing that so many women really think that women become trauma bonded to men because of PIV.

I've shown it to a few people and the best response I've had, was like one of the others on the thread

What.The.Actual.Fuck.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1402972-Does-being-a-RadFem-mean-that-you-cant-like-anything-to-do-with-males-and-PIV?pg=1

Strangely if you read the other blog posts by FCM on that site, you get a 'great' impression of radical feminism. I quote
assuming i havent just eaten, and if its the third wednesday of an odd month or something and i am in the mood, i kind of enjoy observing, if not engaging, those silly old male-identified liberal progressive fun-feminists. because every single time i hear one of them speak, it takes me further and further down the rabbit hole. wheeeee! twirling, twirling down the rabbit hole of sex-pos double-think, deeper and deeper into the vast cavernous void that passes for ?logic? and ?reason? in that post-modern dick-pleasing world. of course, most of the time, its literally impossible to figure out just what in the world they are even talking about. but sometimes, just sometimes, when the planets are aligned just right?

All of which I think is a great shame as it simply means it alienates so many people from feminism. Its certainly made me start to look at it all with a great deal of utter distain. And sadly from a lot of stuff I've seen on MN there does seem to be an awful lot of women who have such a bad impression of men they are now seemingly incapable of giving the benefit of the doubt or believing there are nice guys out there. There's plenty of women who have suffered violence or abuse who don't go done that route...

... in short I can't see it as much different to extreme Islamism or puritanical Christianity due to the amount of bigotry that it seeps.

'Surely maybe two people in the world think that and they are clearly as mad as a box of frogs though?'

Unfortunately not, there are many, many of them.

Read the thread

What. the. actual. fuck. is indeed all I can say

It takes all sorts

I keep of the feminist boards because they are to many posters who try to tell me how i should or shouldn't like sex and they completely won't discuss what this means in a lesbian situation. They only want to focus on male on female sex. I get sick of hearing about their very limited knowledge of sexuality.

The OP has spectaculary missed that one of the collegues could be bi and pay for a male prostitute, or a female visiting would pay another female, does that mean she hates women, also.

OP, haven't read the thread, but wanted to say I think that while I agree the Amsterdam trip is none of your affair if it's not under discussion in the office, I also think it's great that you are intervening to improve misogynistic behaviour in your workplace. Good for you. Dimwitted mosogyny and sexual exploitation of women (or casual attitudes to same) don't improve anyone's world.

You may also have a somewhat skewed view of Amsterdam if you only hear about it from a stag weekend fuckwit perspective. It's a lovely, laid-back city, and steeped in fabulous art - I've not been there in ages, but am dying to go back. That's not to say your officemates are as interested in the Rijksmuseum as I am, but it is technically possible.

And if they do start to boast about their sexual conquests of prostitutes in the office, give them hell, obviously.

Ah, trauma bonding. For the uninitiated, you do not love your DH/DP, you are trauma bonded to him. Because every time he fucks you, there is the fear that you might die. Obviously.

wow......just wow

Did a radical feminist pee in your cheerios, sigmunda? Many of your posts seem a bit one-note and obsessive. Maybe quilting will bring you peace?

'Did a radical feminist pee in your cheerios, sigmunda?'

Oh yes.