Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

Nyac unless Mystic Meg is posting here, how on God's green earth is she going to find out from MumsNet whether they are going to be sexually exploiting women?

Every single one of us could start a thread saying a man we know is going out with his friends tonight...'Will he be sexually exploiting women while he's out?'

Answer: How the fuck do you expect us to know?

i don't think most men pay for sex because they hate women. there are a lot of issues involved obviously but that is quite an assumption.

I'm a bit worried about the Prague thing ] some of my GFs bugger off to Prague - on the pretext of architecture and culture

Quite a lot of men have sex with prostitutes in Amsterdam. In particular men on stag weekends.

It's not low expectations, it's reality. Read the report I linked to.

You seem to have a lot of denial around this TSC.

I know men who went on a stag-do to Amsterdam and similar places. Some visited strip clubs, some had sex with prostitutes, some just wandered around the red light district, some only went for the weed, some avoided the red light district entirely and visited the museums.

The OP isn't being unreasonable in wanting to know. She would be unreasonable if she was assuming that about nice, not sexist (what's the opposite of misogynistic?) men, but she has said that they have made sexist comments.

They may not subject her to listening to the sexist comments anymore and aren't telling her the lurid details of the planned stag-do, but they will still be fuelling the sex industry (like nyac's article explains) and contributing to the trafficking of women. She has a right to know who she is working and spending time with everyday.

She's asking about the likelihood of this happening. The answer it is quite likely. It's possible to answer that question.

Knowing most of the guys I do, they are more likely to go

"wehay lets go to Amsterdam, and go to a strip club"

Day 1. get drunk. spend loads of money. end up staggering to bed about 9pm as they've been drinking since 11am.

Day 2. crawl out of bed with hangover after lunch. go "wehay likes go to strip club". go drinking. perhaps wander off to another bar. realise they are running out of money and their missus is going to murder them alive for spending so much. take out a bit more money. get more drunk. moan about cost of getting into strip club but really its an excuse to get out of going to the strip club that they really aren't arsed about and feel uncomfortable about but don't want to look like a pussy with their mates.

Day 3. Wake up with hang over from hell. Get to the airport, have another drink. Go home to face the music and explain how the hell they have spent so much money.

Maybe that says something about the guys I know. ALL my male friends know I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they did get up to stuff.

Nyac you seem desperate to tar all men with the same brush. Its simply not true at all. There's a lot of huffing and puffing on stag dos that isn't from shagging! Please try and get that into your head too. I am well aware that sex tourism and exploitation occurs. I'm not actually thick. You are trying to paint all men as lying cheating bastards. They might be moronic and stupid at times but actually theres a lot of guys who are simply trying to fit in or are just trying to be the big I am in front of their mates but wouldn't do anything.

And oddly its the women I know who have done far worse on Hen Dos.

Nyac, read the thread title I referred to!

She has a right to know who she is working and spending time with everyday.

Seriously?
I'd rather NOT know...

And I never noticed anything similar in my contract.

Regardless, she will not find out on this thread. Only if she asks them and even so, they may well lie.

Have a and worry about important things.

oh

Hamsterham is cool too (The Wire)

strange that so many men go to amsterdam only to get stoned and view a few women in shop windows but the sex industry there somehting like 80% of their customers are from the uk

i love it there but sex is the main industry now i agree that is why many men go there easy affordable sex with stunning women just waiting there in the windows ready to be picked - its horrible :(

Considering the men's history (and probably present) of sexist comments, I would say that we, even without knowing them, can say that it is very likely that they will at least visit the red light district. Even nice, family men get a little carried away when in that environment, it is perfectly acceptible to assume that a group of misogynistic men will indulge themselves in the red light district, even if they don't actually pay any prostitutes or strippers.

And quite a lot of women get drunk and have sex with strangers on a Saturday night in town.

You could provide provide links on that too but it wouldn't mean the OP for example, would be having sex with strangers if she went out and got drunk tonight, would it?

It wouldn't mean I would be having sex with strangers in town if I got drunk tonight...and it doesn't mean you would be having sex with strangers tonight either Nyac

Does that mean I'm in denial about the fact some women do it and some don't?

shoudl add i love it there apart from red light district but yes have had a look around

In fact, only one way to find out for sure.

Have you got your night goggles ready?

Fido, you reckon that the OP has a right to know who she is working with? And what's she going to do with that info?

I disagree with many things. Bullfighting, for example. Do I have a right to know whether my staff are going to watch a bullfight when they go to Spain this summer?

She has a right to know who she is working and spending time with everyday

What a lot of BS. She has a right to get paid for the work she does each day, what her colleagues morals/beliefs/diets/home lives are like is none of her business. There are proceedures in place for anything she feels is sexual harassment. What they do in their own time, is their own business.

Worral, there is a big difference between getting drunk and having sex with a stranger and paying for sex and encouraging the trafficking of helpless women. That aspect changes behaviour. Misogynists are much less likely to think about funding the sex industry than other men. We are talking about misogynistic men here (from the OPs description). Of course not all men do that (not that I'm an expert on men).

She has a right to know who she is working and spending time with everyday.

Fucking hell. Does that mean I have to explain what I get up to in my spare time to my boss??! Gulps.

Cos obviously that affects my ability to do my job...

As long as they aren't being sexist to her in the workplace then thats where it starts and ends. The rest is none of her business. Her employer has a duty of care thats it.

She has a right to know who she is working and spending time with everyday.

Oh twaddle of the highest order.

No-one has a right to know anything personal about their collegues at all. Gay/straight/bi/practicing faith/dogging/swinging/nipple clamps/knitting/HIV/ttc what ever. right to know my arse.

Fido my point was

People can post as many links as they like about what people get up to on Stag Do's....but that doesn't mean the OP's co-workers will be doing any of it.

Just the same as you could post a link to what goes on in my town on a Saturday night, and that wouldn't mean I would be doing any of it.

So the links in this particular case, are pretty pointless.

Well I don't think that many middle aged women go down town for sex with strangers and even if they did, the fact is I don't go down town to get drunk because I wouldn't even want to be in that situation.

However I've had a couple of one night stands when I was younger and out on the town drinking, so if you'd asked the same question when I was younger and less picky whether it was somewhat of a likelihood then the answer would be yes. So thanks for proving my point Worra. People put themselves in those sorts of situations becasue they are interested in behaving in certain ways. Stag parties go to Amsterdam because of the opportunities for sexually exploiting women (unless they're going for the dope).

Ok - to make it clear... my post asks how other women might feel. Not if it's any of my business. As I've said several times, I won't comment negatively on it in work and I genuinely hope they have a great weekend. I'd like to think it doesn't involve, what in my view, is not exploitiing women who are probably around the same age as one of my daughters.

I'm not in the age bracket where friends are having stag and hen weekends, so I'm a bit out of touch with what actually goes on, and, of course, I know what Amsterdam's reputation is - I've been there myself and seen the women in windows, which I found quite depressing.

I wondered if the weekend could possibly not involve activities which, in my view, exploit and demean other women, and some of you have said that that's entirely possible.

I really don't want to know the details, but I do have a negative view of men who use prostitutes, and it does creep me out to think I am probably sitting alongside some of them... which I almost certainly am, even if the Amsterdam thing hadn't arisen if 1 in 10 men have been to a prostitute.

She's not going to do anything with that info. But I would want to know if I was muslim and my colleagues were in the EDL. She is a woman and she wants to know if her colleagues are visiting strip clubs/brothels. She spends everyday (I assume) with them, she should know how they view her (as a woman, not a person).

troisgarcons I would be HORRIFIED to find out I was working with a radical knitter.