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Original poster

Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

557 replies

cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 10:46

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 11:49

It still has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP even if they do shag prostitutes though, does it? Confused

She has said....

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence

Now if they were going into graphic sexual detail about what they intend to do in Amsterdam (if indeed they did want sex over there) that would make it the OP's problem because understandably, she wouldn't want to be listening to it.

But what the weekend involves hasn't even been discussed in front of her....and that's what makes it none of her business

BIWI · 18/02/2012 11:54

I can see that you would be worried about their attitudes in the workplace, and I can see why you might be concerned about what they are up to on the stag weekend, but I really can't see why you would be bothered to start a post about this, worrying about it.

You are over-reacting, and you're also over-thinking it.

It is absolutely nothing to do with you and, actually, rather patronising to assume that they must be up to something 'inappropriate' based on the choice of location.

YANBU to admit that it gives you the creeps. YABVU to assume that this is any business of yours whatsoever.

YAalsoBVU to assume that because they are going to Amsterdam they will be involved in specific activities. Why wouldn't they be up to just the same in Dublin, or London, or Rome, or Paris?

And am I the only one to think that it's a little odd that you're worried about the red-light district as opposed to taking drugs and drinking to excess? Hmm

youareallwrong · 18/02/2012 11:55

People who are telling you you're overreacting or imagining this are being incredibly naive.

Good grief. Would you like to meet my DH! Dear god, if he met some of the MNetters I think some of you would have kittens on the spot with some of the stuff he comes out with or the stories he tells from his delightful workmates. (One of whom currently has 9, yes NINE, girls on the go).

If there was one thing I'm not, its naive!

Strangely enough he's managed to go on a stag do abroad. With 15 lads. One of the married ones did snog a woman. Much to the horror and disgust of one of the other men there. No strip clubs. And no I don't think DH was lying simply cos of the other stuff he does tell me about what his mates get up to. And yes they were very laddy types.

My boss went to Latvia with his brother on a stag do. Again same thing. My boss is unbelievably straight, never even smoked a cigarette but would be a right lad on the piss. Wouldn't stray though (and its been commented on before that he's walked out when he's had it offered on a plate to him by a third party).

Strangely men quite often seem to have a weird sense of honour and sense of what is acceptable and what isn't - its not black and black like some people here seem to think. The colleague with 9 girls thinks the one who is cheating on his wife is disrespectful and treats women like shit!!! (yes I know). His view on marriage is very traditional and very straight.

Why do women insist on making such ridiculous stereotypes and judgments? SOME guys would. Most I know wouldn't.

The fact is they are generally silly little boys in big groups and are definitely more mouth than trousers. Its the bravado not the acts that seem to be the thing...

GrahamTribe · 18/02/2012 11:56

"It's my business in the sense that a certain attitude towards women does sometimes permeate into my work environment - and unless you've been at the receiving end of that, then I'm not sure it's possible to understand how unpleasant that can be... although I can deal with it, and wouldn't have survived if I hadn't been able to.

The stag weekend, if it does involve what I (and others would view) as the objectification of women, is an embodiment of that attitude in my view."

And you think that this attitude towards women wasn't there before the advent of this or any other Amsterdam stag do? Where does your sense of entitlement to consider things your business end? Will you be sacking any of the guys if you discover that they've shagged someone other than their wives or partners, now or in the future?

Also, I've dealt with shitty attitudes towards women in the workplace. I was the young boss of a bunch of men in an extremely male-dominated industry. And yes, I dealt with it too, but without judging or "feeling" anything about what my staff might have done with their own bodies in their own free time.

GrahamTribe · 18/02/2012 11:57

"It's my business... "
"I am minding my own business... "

Make your mind up for Pete's sakes!

WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 12:01

And the thing is, the OP has challenged their behaviour and has been supported by her boss in that.

Therefore, it sounds as though her Co-workers are respectfully keeping the details from her.

Maybe that's the problem. The OP is simply dying to know what they intend to get up to, but they're not telling her Grin

Nyac · 18/02/2012 12:09

It's funny how the OP is getting slagged off, but the men who go to places like Amsterdam to pay for sex with exploited, possibly trafficked women aren't having any judgement passed on them at all.

I'd still like to know who people think is paying for all the prostitution in Amsterdam if it isn't a good number of the men who go on regular stag dos there.

It's even got a name, it's called sex tourism.

GrahamTribe · 18/02/2012 12:11

That wasn't the question, Nyac. The question was how would we feel. Many of us have replied that we would feel that it's none of our or the OPs business.

Nyac · 18/02/2012 12:14

You weren't asked how you feel Graham. Where do you get that?

Here's what the OP asked:

"Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?"

She wants to know if there's likely to be sexual exploitation of women involved in a stag weekend to Amsterdam full of men she knows have bad sexual attitudes towards women.

She's right. It's very likely. It's why men like that go to Amsterdam in big gangs, to encourage each other then keep each other's secrets.

youareallwrong · 18/02/2012 12:18

Nyac, I have as much problem with a woman making SEXIST ASSUMPTIONS about what men will get up to on a stag do in Amsterdam as I do with men who would actually pay for sex.

Thats my issue. I consider the OP to be being judgmental in her opinions and pandering to a stereotype that is unfair to a lot of men.

The question wasn't what I thought about men who DEFINITELY WERE PLANNING to use sexual services.

What you are doing is putting 1 and 1 together and coming up with 8.

GrahamTribe · 18/02/2012 12:20

Erm, Nyac, read the thread title.

Then copy and paste it on here. Grin

WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 12:20

She wants to know if there's likely to be sexual exploitation of women involved in a stag weekend to Amsterdam full of men she knows have bad sexual attitudes towards women

And how the hell does she expect a board of random internet strangers to know what's likely to go on, on this particular stag do? Confused

She could always ask them what their intentions are but then they'd be quite within their rights to tell her to wind her neck in.

They seem to get the fact she doesn't want that sort of talk at work....and she's got her wish.

Trouble is, her nose seems to be itching to know the details...so much so that she's asking internet strangers what they think her collegues will be getting up to.

You couldn't make it up!

FreudianSlipper · 18/02/2012 12:21

have to agree it is none of your business but if they do start to talk about what went on and you feel uncomfortable speak up, i have had to do it working in a male dominated

for many this is what amsterham has become about but not all so some may indulge and some may not

GavisconJunkie · 18/02/2012 12:22

FFS Nyac touchy much?! I resent your assumptions. I think you know the wrong type of men!

GrahamTribe · 18/02/2012 12:23

Is it naice Amsterham, FreudianSlipper? Grin

startail · 18/02/2012 12:23

Get ye to the feminism board you'll get no sympathy here.

Nyac · 18/02/2012 12:24

Being realistic about what misogynistic men get up to in Amsterdam when they go there in groups is as bad as paying to use a woman's body? Are you serious?

If you think I'm doing my sums wrong, tell me who is supporting the thriving sex industry in Amsterdam, which relies on sex tourism, including business from stag weekends.

Here's a report from the BBC about what effect stag parties are having on the sex industry:

Stag parties 'fuel sex trafficking'

goodnightmoon · 18/02/2012 12:26

i think any stag weekend is suspect but it's not really your concern if these are your colleagues, not even your partner. Amsterdam is a lovely and fun place even for those not keen on drugs or sex with strangers.

Nyac · 18/02/2012 12:27

From the article. It's about Prague but the same applies to Amsterdam.

"The British stag party has changed in the past 10 years. The drink down the pub with dad or your mates is gone. It has been replaced with three or four nights in a foreign city, far from prying eyes and geared to meet the stag party's every desire.

And that is often much more than a visit to a strip club. For a large number of stags, visiting a prostitute has also become part of the ultimate lads' weekend.
Prague has 70 brothels and numerous strip clubs. It is not hard to find some of the half a million stag visitors, many British, that the Prague tourist board say visit every year. I found them at every sex establishment I went to.

There was a strip party bus, lap-dancing, and even a brothel that offers free sex provided you agree to be filmed. And many of the British stag groups had at least some, if not all, members buying sexual services.

A local charity worker was in no doubt thatBritish stag parties coming to Prague had increased local demand for sexual services.

"If a British stag sleeps with women in a brothel or sleeps with her on the streets it could be a women brought? because of the sex industry, to be trafficked there from any part of the world.""

WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 12:27

Nyac you're going off on a bit of a tangent now

Your link has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP

She's asking if it's at all possible that the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

And of course it's entirely possible.

Nyac · 18/02/2012 12:28

"Trouble is, her nose seems to be itching to know the details...so much so that she's asking internet strangers what they think her collegues will be getting up to."

I guess she wants to know if she's working with a bunch of woman-haters Worra. It's not unreasonable.

If she was from an ethnic minority and she suspected them of going to BNP meetings it would be a similar situation.

FredFredGeorge · 18/02/2012 12:30

I've been on a stag do to Amsterdam, no-one on the stag do paid for any sexual acts, no-one visited a sex show, we did visit the sex museum - and an entertaining time that was. I've also been on a group of mens weekend, again no sex shows, or prostitutes. I have also visited a sex show there, but that was when I was visiting just with my girlfriend, and she suggested it, the women were almost exclusively in dominant roles too.

YABVU to make assumptions about what people get up to.

Nyac · 18/02/2012 12:30

The whole OP is about whether they are going to be sexually exploiting women Worra. You yourself are claiming unjustly that she wants to know the details.

I'm sure the OP will clarify if she thinks my answers are off topic.

WorraLiberty · 18/02/2012 12:31

I guess she wants to know if she's working with a bunch of woman-haters Worra. It's not unreasonable

According to her OP, some of her co-workers view women as sex objects so what else does she want to know?

Nyac · 18/02/2012 12:32

Maybe she wants to assess exactly how much they hate women. Paying to use a prostitute is off the scale.