to think that if you let the students in your class do any of these things you are doing them a disservice?

[pickledsiblings]

• listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant)
• eat and/or drink (not water obviously)
• get up and walk around at will
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear)
• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow)
• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books
• treat the floor as a bin
• deface books
• break pens etc
• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice)

All opinions most welcome!

Any teachers willing to admit to any/all of these? Would be particularly interested in hearing your justifications.

Sometimes the way to teach them to abide by the rules is to teach them the circumference of a circle.

On the whole, children exhibit less challenging behaviour when they are engaged and learning.

But I guess you'd know that, OP.

"At our local grammar schools, mobiles are simply not allowed in classrooms - if they are seen by a teacher, they are confiscated until the end of the day.

Is this unusual?"

I work with a school which does not allow phones on site at all, no exceptions. Pupils who are seen with a phone have it confiscated (it's only released to a parent/carer) and they receive an exclusion.

The school is bloody awful and I wouldn't send my DD there in a million years.

LeQ no, not unusual. The schools where the DCs go do not allow iPods, phone use, cursing/swearing, sexual harassment or sexual contact of any kind because that would entail creation of a hostile environment for less 'alpha' students, eating in the classrooms (since the mouse problem got a bit out of hand sad day for DD2's French class when this rule came into effect as they used to have a little party occasionally on Fridays because the teacher loves Nutella to explore French gastronomy).

Floor as bin - wouldn't raise an eyebrow unless it was done in a deliberate way.
Breaking pens/showing up without pens/paper - please yourself, it's your loss, no alternatives provided by the teachers.
Defacing books - student's loss.
Music in class - only in art, and teacher's music equipment used for the whole class.

Pickled - the example/type of class I'm referring to would be middle to low ability with disaffected students. What sort of ability is your DD - maybe she would be in a group more like her? (I presume she does not engage in pen throwing, work refusal etc )

(I am not FOR ONE MINUTE suggesting that low ability = being dissaffected, my hardest working and most focussed class is the 'bottom' group in KS4)

I gave my sixth formers a lolly each a couple of lessons ago. They ate the lollies there and then, whilst working.
3 of them have oxbridge offers, 4 for medicine, 1 for vetsci, 1 for dentistry etc etc.
The lollies were a well done for the whole class getting a A or higher in a past paper.
Shoot me now, or sack me - "whatever"
BTW totally different teaching bottom set year 10, non exam class to the group above, still might break one or two of the OP's long list of forbidden behaviours (shrug)

yy to tethersend's point about engaged in learning = less likely to exhibit challenging behaviour. Hence why you do everything you can to get them learning, which is maybe why you are seeing some of things you listed in your OP.

Sadly Tethers our school doesn't ban phones. We have a rubbish and unenforceable 'only at breaks and lunchtime' policy.

Pickledsiblings - you need to look at the school. I've taught in "special measures" sink comprehensives where the GCSE pass rate is 16% and the aim is to keep the pupils in the room - if they learn something then it's a bonus and I've taught in "Ofstead Outstanding" schools where the discipline has been so strict the children don't dare breathe without permission.

The two are completely different animals. As a teacher, you have to assess the class and work with your pupils accordingly. You asked if teachers had ever allowed the behaviours you describe - I said yes and told you why.

To be quite frank, I am not going to give a bottom set year 11 girl in a sink comprehensive a row for eating or drinking in class or texting, when I know that she's spent the night on her best friends floor because her step father beat up her mother (again) and she hasn't had breakfast. Nor am I going to pick a battle with a 16 year old boy (ex-child soldier from the Congo) who has just sworn under his breath because he's starting to get annoyed because the teacher in the previous lesson didn't tell off the boy who called him an "asylum seeking scrounger" and started to push his buttons to wind him up. I'm going to settle them down, treat them like adults and give them an hour a week away from their crappy lives by making my lessons somewhere they can rescue their battered self esteem - even if that's just completing the tiniest bit of work.

I am going to (and do) come down hard on the child who is taking the piss because "they think they can get away with it".

Teaching is NOT black and white. Sometimes the home lives of the pupils are so completely chaotic, school is just an extension of that chaos and pupils act out because they are seeking attention and negative attention is better than no attention. Sometimes, it is frustrating and hard and yes, you do want to kill the little shits because (yet again) another lesson has gone to ruin through poor behaviour and they haven't learned anything, but as a teacher you deal with it in the best way you can.

I wouldn't want my child in the school I describe - I make no bones or apologies about it, we will be going independent when we educate our children because we can afford it and I consider that the local independent school to us is far superior to the local schools, BUT, that doesn't mean the teachers in the "difficult" or local schools are crap. They have different issues to deal with and often a teacher is 4/10 social worker, 4/10 mentor and 2/10 teacher.

Round of applause for QuietTiger

Well said.

LeQ, the school I am talking about is an ultra-strict, oversubscribed and very well regarded Academy.

It's awful.

Quiet Tiger I could be wrong, but statisitically how many children do you think are ex boy soldiers from the congo v's little pricks who behave as they do because they can get away with it. In your typical secondary school ?

QuietTiger, thank you for your awareness-raising post. Of course I have no idea what it is like to teach in a school like the one that you describe and I can quite understand the lengths that it may be necessary to go to as a teacher to provide a sense of stability and refuge for such troubled students.

The school that I am concerned about is in a fairly affluent market town with mainly engaged parents. Students eat their packed lunches on the floor as no seating area is provided and they carry their belongings around with them as no lockers are provided.

I'm not disputing what you say Heswall, because I've come across more than my fair share of "little pricks" but my point is that as someone said further up the thread - you teach to the class.

The inital question asked by the OP was has any teacher ever admitted to doing a huge list of things and why. I said yes, and I said why.

I also said in my last post that

I am going to (and do) come down hard on the child who is taking the piss because "they think they can get away with it".

You teach to the child - if you can.

pickledsiblings - none of the teachers at my children's schools (one primary, one junior high, one lycée) would let the children do any of these things and no parent I know would condone a teacher letting children do any of these things.

Asked dd (year 10) what would be allowed

• listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant) not allowed, would be told to put it away and if you didn't it would be sent to reception
• eat and/or drink (not water obviously) wouldn't happen. If you did you'd get a code C for chewing, and three codes make a detention
• get up and walk around at will depends, you could get up to put something in a bin
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear) no, kid did that the other day and got sent to LSC (learning support centre for naughty kids) for the rest of the day
• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow) NO!!!!
• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books no - code E for equipment. You'd get given a new book if you never ever had one
• treat the floor as a bin no
• deface books can doodle in back of own books, would be paid to pay for new one if you did it on the front of your own
• break pens etc if it's your own pen, no-one would really care
• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice) people text, yes

pickledsiblings - I think that you have a secret agenda against this school. You have already tried to raise support regarding the lack of lockers, lunch space and 'walkie talkies at lunch time' to which you didn't gain a lot of support and now you have posted this? What is the actual reason for your 'campaign'?

I would just like it to be a school worthy of its reputation cricket.

What's the issue with walkie talkies at lunch? Surely a good thing, no?

so how are you so sure that everything you have said actually occurs on a daily basis?

The only thing I would occasionally let go would be some bd language, as long as it was being used in a sentence not as insults and I would probably still at least have the usual 'language x' 'sorry miss' conversation. But this fact may not be completely obvious to anyone outside of the kid involved, for example if a kid had no pen I would just lend them one and it would like that was the end. Behind the scenes/after class is a different matter though.
I always try to avoid providing any 'theatre' over rules in lessons as it massively distracts from learning and also puts the kid in an often im

and by the way; often MC children are far worse than the dis-advantaged as they have an attitude that staff are below them.......

Possible position where they have to capitulate in public.