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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that if you let the students in your class do any of these things you are doing them a disservice?

247 replies

pickledsiblings · 16/02/2012 15:49

  • listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant)
  • eat and/or drink (not water obviously)
  • get up and walk around at will
  • swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear)
  • dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow)
  • routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books
  • treat the floor as a bin
  • deface books
  • break pens etc
  • use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice)

All opinions most welcome!

Any teachers willing to admit to any/all of these? Would be particularly interested in hearing your justifications.

OP posts:
EvilTwins · 18/02/2012 08:17

Are you a teacher?

EvilTwins · 18/02/2012 08:17

That was to pendeen

Loshad · 18/02/2012 13:46

Pendeen it is.
I repeat Evils question - are you a teacher? where do you teach.?
Including my training schools i have taught in 5 secondary schools, I have volunteered in another (before doing PGCE), i have children at another 2 different secondary schools. These are spread across 4 different LA's and include fee paying.
At all of them the individuals being taught were (and are) referred to as students.

vegetariandumpling · 18/02/2012 14:11

I have a colleague who does everything on that list at work (apart from the dry humping...). He still has a job so why should it matter if students do it in class?

And yes when I was at school (not that long ago) those things happened in every single lesson, and teachers would waste so much time arguing with the students about those things that there wasn't much actual teaching (that's why I had a tutor).

wordfactory · 18/02/2012 14:13

cricket I think it is terribly sad that you find the idea of good levels of behaviour so laughable.

You seem to assume that unpleasant or ill mannered behaviour is inevitable in young people. IMVHO that assumption is far too common among parents and teachers alike.

Young people are perfectly capable of behaving themselves appropriately and do so when they know exactly what is expected of them. There are schools in the UK that have every high levels of dsicipline and the pupils there are no angels, they just know what they have to do to get on.

If you were to go to schools in other countries, you would see also that behaviour is a given. Pupils know that their behaviour is non negotiable.

Lasy yera I had the huge priviledge of attending a school in the States where the pupils come from the most disadvantaged backgrounds. The majority of pupils know at least one person who has been murdered and at least one person serving a life sentence. Most pupils live in abject poverty given that there is no benefit system and no NHS to speak of and their parents for the most part do not work or work minimum wage.
These pupils attain at a very high level and the HT puts much of this down to high expectations of both beaviour and hard graft. No swearing or eating would be tolerated there. No being late tolerated (despite the fact that school starts ludicrously early and most students have long journeys on public transport). No handing in homework late (despite the fact that the day is ludicrously long). No special allowances made for those coming from difficult backgrounds because they all do.

If a school with that intake can impose strong discipline, then why would it be so difficult to do so here? Why would the very idea make you laugh?

cricketballs · 18/02/2012 15:20

what was funny was your assumption that this behaviour is rare!

I in no way condoned it but as someone who has taught in very different schools I have the experience to know that it does go on every day by the vast majority of students and I find your condensing reply insulting.

The swearing is often under their breath, during break, lunch, after school and in the main when they don't realise they can be heard (the art of whispering seems to have not evolved in most teenagers Grin). As for not sneaking a sweet/crisp during a lesson - even the most well behaved will try this at some point at school.

mathanxiety · 18/02/2012 21:45

Wordfactory -- that sort of regime operated in the high school my oldest DCs attended in the US (not a deprived area at all). There were no uniforms but as a rule a stricter tone by teachers and administrators and far less tolerance for students (this is what they were called) stepping out of line when it came to showing respect for the personal boundaries of other students and respect for teachers conducting classes. Sexual harassment, or harassment with racial, ethnic, religious, sexuality or political overtones were completely banned.

All students and teachers wore IDs, all students no matter how far they had to travel in a huge building with 3,500 other people on the move in the corridors at the same time between classes had to make it to their next class in four minutes flat - consequences for lateness were severe. Clocks were everywhere, and the time was shown down to hundredths of seconds. Late students could not go into their classes and had to swipe their IDs in the corridor at the security station; three such swipes in a semester meant intervention by the Dean's office. You were expected to just run faster (and keep to the right) if you were going from swimming on the ground floor at the south end of the building to French on the fourth floor at the far north end. You could ask for some switching around of classes if the situation was impossible but this wasn't guaranteed, and you could use the one lift if you had a request from a doctor for medical reasons. Late assignments -- lose ten percent of possible grade per day (important in a grade point average system). School started at 8. At 7.55 am you were guaranteed to hit a traffic jam in the vicinity of the school. At 8.01 am you would see maybe one or two students hurrying to the building.

Backing up the teachers was a raft of counsellors and deans of discipline. There was a school within a school for students with behavioural problems that were resulting is classroom or public area disruption -- in the US, public school districts whose schools that expel students still have to provide educational services for them.

OTOH, every student had a locker and within the classroom, there was quite a wide latitude allowed for student dress (no offensive slogans or too revealing clothing allowed, consequence was to wear a school gym t-shirt over whatever you had arrived in in the morning) there was a certain amount of give and take tolerated between students and teachers. For the most part, that latitude was not abused. It was also very easy to get in touch with teachers via e-mail or phone, and teachers didn't hesitate to get in touch with parents. It's hard to see how British schools that treat teenage students like children or nuisances in many ways (no lockers so no sense of belonging and actual difficulty carrying everything around all day; uniforms so no sense of acknowledgement of individuality or personal autonomy) still expect students to demonstrate school spirit/engagement with the learning process, and responsible and respectful behaviour.

In general, I think schools in the US are far less accepting of the idea that allowances should be made for anyone for any reason. Academies and charter schools that are set up in deprived areas generally start fixing educational achievement problems by first instituting strict disciplinary policies and even uniforms.

scrablet · 19/02/2012 07:22

To Math (completely missing point) our senior school attendees (students, pupils, my DD) have lockers...nominal uniform only, eg black whatever will do, and plenty of autonomy, co-existing with caring ethos.
Not all UK schools, or teachers exactly the same...

Pendeen · 19/02/2012 17:06

No I'm not a teacher, I'm an architect.

Why?

EvilTwins · 19/02/2012 17:23

Because, pendeen, if you're not a teacher, why on earth would you come onto a thread which is clearly aimed at teachers (the clue being the word YOUR in the sentence "students in YOUR classes") and argue about what the accepted term is? If you're not a teacher, then what makes you think you're remotely qualified to know whether or not "students" is the correct word.

Perhaps I should have been clearer - "student" is the accepted term amongst those who work in education and amongst those to whom this thread is addressed. It just is.

pickledsiblings · 19/02/2012 18:39

So ET and others, any ideas of what to include in my letter to the Head?

Some of my colleagues who have never taught in the Independent sector and were State educated themselves have no idea just how well behaved students (who do not have high ability or even high levels of engagement with your subject) can be.

How can I get this across to the Head without sounding like an arse?

All ideas welcome Smile.

OP posts:
EndoplasmicReticulum · 19/02/2012 18:59

Pickled, to be honest I don't think you can.

Bonsoir · 19/02/2012 19:05

pickledsiblings - I think you identify a crucial issue in your last post. It is always very hard to imagine a classroom culture that is entirely unlike any you have ever known.

I was stunned and amazed when my own DD, in petite section (so aged 3), went up on a stage with 90 other children of the same age (max 4.5) and sang songs to parents for their end of year show, lining up perfectly on stage with not a squeak, not talking to one another, stepping out of line or otherwise doing anything other than being angelic.

I've got used to those expectations now, but it took time and if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it. Ditto when I ate at the school canteen the following year and witnessed 4/5 year olds sitting round tables eating four course meals having proper conversations with one another (no adults at table) and putting up their hands if they wanted a glass of water.

EvilTwins · 19/02/2012 19:06

If you're genuinely, really concerned, then I think going in and speaking to he head would be far better than writing. I find it's harder to get your intended tone across in writing than face-to-face. If you are bothered about the standards of behaviour you saw when you taught there, then could you make an appointment, and start with something like "I wanted to raise a few concerns - things I observed when I was teaching, which I feel are leading to underachievement, and which I expect you're unaware of but will want to act upon".

When I took my maternity leave, I had to return to work for half a term (after which I resigned) in order not to lose the maternity pay. Rather than giving me my timetable back, I did a cover timetable (not fun!) but one of the things I did as a consequence, was speak to the head about the inconsistencies in behaviour, cover provision etc across different departments in the school. He really appreciated that, not that he did anything about it (the school went into special measures not long after that and he was removed from his position. Three years on, I'm back at the same school, with a new head and the difference is astounding)

If I were you, pickled, that's what I'd do. Jot down some notes. Make sure you know what you want to bring to the HT's attention, and stress that you are concerned about the standards. Mention that you are also a parent with a 10 yr old, and that you are not considering that school for X, Y and Z reasons. I wouldn't talk about the behaviour contributing to your resignation (unless you particularly want to) and keep to the things you want to discuss.

mathanxiety · 19/02/2012 19:20

Maybe ask him how he would imagine an average young girl of 12 would feel in a classroom or lunchroom where older or bigger children were allowed to get away with uncivil behaviour, what she would most likely concentrate on while in the school, how all of that might distract from what she should be attending to, whether she would feel physically safe there...

Chances are, if the school is as bad as you say it is, you will be wasting your sweetness on the desert air because you will be talking to the person responsible for the mess and he will dismiss everything you say.

cricketballs · 19/02/2012 19:24

ok - I would agree with Eviltwins suggestion if this is what you want to do, but rather than just highlight the shortcomings that you feel are there in terms of the behaviour you should also have some suggestions on how to tackle it. This may help towards not being seen as someone who just wants to say the school is terrible but as someone who wants the school to improve. I would also steer clear of focusing on anyone in particular.

pickledsiblings · 19/02/2012 19:35

Thank you so much for your suggestions. I think I will arrange a meeting with the Head. In his letter acknowledging my resignation he did write that he would have liked to have had the chance to discuss any issues behind my resignation before I left.

cricketballs, I am struggling to think of suggestions on how to tackle the issues.
I wondered if improving the lunchtime provision might help...

Again, all suggestions most welcome!

OP posts:
gorionine · 19/02/2012 19:36

In High School I did the following things:

  • eat and/or drink (water though)
  • routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books

there was no mobile (I am really old) or Ipods

I guess the very big difference with now, is that whatever we were doing , we were trying to be as discreet as possible, the challenge was NOT to get caught because if we were, we would have been disciplines in school and at home. Today I think the challenge Is to get caught and see if Mr/Miss dares saying anything. There is no fear of consequence anymore.

gorionine · 19/02/2012 19:38

OOPS I missed a few pages, not too many, just 9!Blush

cricketballs · 19/02/2012 19:42

what is their current procedures for managing behaviour? Maybe this could be re-visited? What do the other staff think? As the solution needs to have full staff backing ; including SLT.

For some of the things though you might not get the response you would prefer e.g. listening to music (I am always going to defend this one for when they are doing individual work Grin)

Pendeen · 19/02/2012 22:29

Discipline in classes and good standards of education are of concern to all, not just teachers.

EvilTwins · 20/02/2012 18:20

That's true of course, but your only contribution seemed to be to argue about something which you know nothing about - namely whether or not "student" is the accepted term of reference for... um.... students.

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