to think that if you let the students in your class do any of these things you are doing them a disservice?

[pickledsiblings]

• listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant)
• eat and/or drink (not water obviously)
• get up and walk around at will
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear)
• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow)
• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books
• treat the floor as a bin
• deface books
• break pens etc
• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice)

All opinions most welcome!

Any teachers willing to admit to any/all of these? Would be particularly interested in hearing your justifications.

I'm not currently teaching, but yes it was - I have been in a couple with blanket bans, it doesn't really stop pupils appearing with them and trying to sneakily use them...

I found it quite useful actually, they're less likely to start chatting when they should be writing and if you've made it clear that it absolutely is a privilege that if they abuse won't be happening again - then with the exception of the few pupils that you're always going to have problems with, they responded pretty well to it.

Of course if it was a lesson that involved instructions and or discussion then that's completely different.

- listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant)- I used to teach art and have let them do this many times, particularly if a student has difficulties concentrating for long periods of time and is prone to getting distracted by others/wandering off

- eat and/or drink (not water obviously) - Have let this happen, in fact have even given students sandwiches if they have not had lunch or breakfast.

- get up and walk around at will - Have done this many, many times; it can helps a student not to feel 'trapped' in the classroom and leave the lesson completely.

- swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear) - Yup. Sometimes focusing on secondary behaviours is not the right thing to do. This kind of behaviour is easily dealt with afterwards when the child is less angry; it usually happens after a confrontation with another child/adult.

- dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow) - It would certainly depend on the context, but I would be having a word about this.

- routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books - I would be trying to find out why this is happening; but had all materials in my classroom just in case.

- treat the floor as a bin - Always pull them up on this

- deface books - Yes; once did a project where a whole class defaced books by writing on them, painting out text and turning them into 3D work.

- break pens etc - Always address this; although again, maybe not at the time. It would depend on the context. If a child wanted to punch a window and broke a pen instead, you're not going to shout at him in front of the class, are you?

- use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice)- Have done this, but made certain that me coming to address the issue happened as the text was finished and phone put away.

Do I win £5?

Actually, music can have an amazing effect on learning. I know an excellent Maths teacher who plays Mozart for the first 15 mins of each lesson. I also know an Art teacher who allows students to pick the music they will listen to each week while they work, with excellent effect.

Listening to any old arse while your teacher is talking, though, probably isn't conducive to learning, no . I recently asked a lad I was working with if I could have a listen to whatver the music he was obviously listening to underneath his hood ('What? What music , Miss?' Y...eah right) and it was - literally - 'Nigga nigga, bitch bitch, nigga nigga'. I dont think that was contributing to his social skills lesson, no.

The relaxing the rules when you know a class could have implications for new teachers coming in though. Students may perceive them as behaving in an unfair manner thus setting up conflict from the beginning.

I think that kids having a certain amount of freedom is acceptable, eg listening to music on low while completing set work. Listening to music while being taught is not acceptable nor is having it so loud it is disruptive. As for the other stuff, it's rude, disrespectful and should not be allowed and I would not expect it to be tolerated. As for kids being untouchable, if they have been in trouble at school they can expect to be in more trouble when they get home. How can we expect teachers to maintain discipline when parents undermine it?

tethersend, what Independent School do you work in again?

pickled, I cant base my teaching on making it easy or hard for teachers coming in. I have to base it on what I know works nad gets results.

Teach the kids in front of you. That's what the first Head I ever worked with taught me, and it has never failed me.

I'm going to take these one at a time. I'm a primary teacher but thinking of this from a secondary point of view

- listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant) I see no problem with this while children are working independently, in fact I often use music in my classroom but not ipods etc as the kids I teach are too young to bring them in. At an older age I think it probably has benefits as long as it's not while the actual teaching is happening

- eat and/or drink (not water obviously) Again, I don't really see the issue. Esp in secondary when lessons can be longer, i like to nibble while I'm working (at home, obv not while teaching), so see no reason why kids can't

- get up and walk around at will I massively admire anyone who can stop this at secondary level. IMO it depends on the reason for the walking and this can often be controlled. Eg. its perfectly acceptable for children to get up to get a book they need, but not to go and have a chat

- swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear) I think this depends on how often it occurs. Its going to happen between teenagers and may not be worth making a fuss over and interrupting the whole class for. If its ongoing or seems like bullying then that is different

- dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow) Never acceptable, I would take further

- routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books I'm sorry, why is this the teachers fault? I have no control over the children outside of my classroom. Being prepared is their/their parents problem, not mine

- treat the floor as a bin not on your nelly

- deface books hells no

- break pens etc They are free to break their own pens. again, not my problem. School supplies or someone else's pen, no, action would be taken

- use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice) No, I would not allow this, although it could be hard to stop if their music players are their phones, see point 1

Still don't really understand why you are asking.

Have you witnessed these personally?

In one class/lesson?

Happening simultaneously?

Are these just things you've heard about?

Are you just trying to get people to slate teachers?

I've had a good deal of success in certain circumstances with using "trade offs" for older (i.e. year 10/11) bottom set behaviour classes where the agreement has been that they can listen to music on their phones/ipods in return for paying attention while I explain the work and then behaving and completing the work I set in a lesson. We've agreed boundries at the outset and they responded well to the more "relaxed" approach.

As for the other stuff, sometimes you have to use your judgement as to what to let go - especially in the classes where you are more of a "social worker" than a "teacher".

"Teaching" (especially in secondary in a sink school) is not as black and white as you initally make out, OP.

I think in some situations (where a teacher has a tough group) then selective hearing/listening can be justified. As with parenting I guess you have to pick your battles carefully - do you stop the whole class from learning/progressing and ramp up a hoo ha 'cos little Johnny has muttered 'fuck you' under his breath/broken a pen or do you let it ride and enable the rest of the group to learn?

If you do challenge it then (a) confronting little johnny could lead to a bigger issue and (b) the consequence for little johnny will be time out in the isolation room etc and then he'll be back next lesson doing the same thing...

I agree with the poster who said 'you teach the class in front of you'

"tethersend, what Independent School do you work in again?"

My, that's a big assumption. More than a little patronising, to boot.

All of the incidences refer to my teaching in inner London, either in mainstream comps, PRUs or EBD schools. Does that make a difference? Do I get my £5 now?

Is this about this Educating Essex which is on again?

Is it on again? A new series??!

hear hear Quiettiger - I could have written your post myself.

Music, especially to lower sets does help them with working. I also have the same deal in my classroom - you can listen to your music whilst working but this privilege can be removed so the rules are set and they do respond to being treated as adults (which may help explain my good results with these groups [gold star!])

Again, the other stuff - not having equipment; sometimes we are lucky they have managed to come to school in clothing! Eating and drinking; again see my note above. Swearing - you take each aspect depending on the context/situation as things are not always so clear cut

Ok mine do none of these except turn up without a pen. And some of them break the ones I give them. If they do I label the Len with their name and that's the one they get every lesson.

Although last year one by literally ingested an entire pen. The whole lot, inner bit, vpcase and nib. I was too fascinated to stop him - honestly, you could televise it.

If anyone's child does that in class maybe the parents should be trying to parent a bit harder too?

I have seen all of these but would always challenge them of course.

The only one where I might not is not having a pen/ pencil. I think you have to pick your battles and i'm not sure if this is a worthwhile battle, so they can borrow one from me. I teach in a mixed catchment but some areas are quite deprived and for some of the kids it is an achievement to have got themselves to school in the first place, albeit without a full range of stationery.

Just checked with my teenagers who say none of this would be allowed in their schools apart from possibly the ipod one but only in the sixth form and then only when completing individual work not group/class teaching.
Ipods and mobile phones not allowed out of bags in the lower school or they are confiscated and can only be collected at the end of school.

I am not trying to get people to slate teachers FolkGirl and others. I have huge admiration for teachers.

The Head of my catchment school proclaims to "run it like an Independent School". My DD is 10 and I would not want/expect her to partake of or witness any of the things from my OP. I am also curious as to whether or not these things go on in the Independent Sector.

QuietTiger, don't you think that if you could get the students to behave more appropriately that you would be 'teaching' them something more valuable than whatever subject you are trying to coax them to learn?

I only teach up to year 8 but:
listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant)
Not individual music players but I play the whole class music from my laptop while they are working sometimes.

eat and/or drink (not water obviously)
No, I don't allow this, I expect them to get enough to eat and drink during break times.

get up and walk around at will
It depends on the task and the lenfth of the lesson. Sometimes I'll let it go, some kids need to stretch their legs sometimes.

swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear)
I would almost always challenge this. There would be the odd exception though.

dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow)
No way would I let that one go! My oldest class are 13!

routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books
I let this slide. Some children have organisational problems and some have extenuating circumstaces. Some are just ditzy. I always have spare stationery.

treat the floor as a bin
No way

deface books
No way

break pens etc
If it was deliberate I would challenge it. ANd, if it was their own pen, I would let the parents know as it would be unliley to be the child forking out for a new one (a lot of mine use £20+ Lamy pens!)

use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice)
No way, mobiles aren't allowed in school

Why?

All mine are independant sector but all are/were at different schools so in my experience definitely not like independent schools.

I don't think it's a case of "letting" them do any of these things, rather it's about dealing with the individual pupil in an age-appropriate manner, as well as taking into consideration their individual needs.

I am a supply teacher - I didn't "let" the boy who refused to do maths sit on the floor and tidy his tray, but I made the decision not to confront him about it in front of the other children as I was informed by the TA that he was emotionally disturbed and used to throw chairs if he was unhappy. Therefore, tray tidying was a huge improvement. It's far from perfect, but that's education for you these days!

OK then, in my classroom - I teach in the independent sector.

• listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant) - not allowed.

• eat and/or drink (not water obviously) - even water not allowed on Health and Safety grounds, I teach in the lab.

• get up and walk around at will - yes, they need to collect equipment etc. Not just for a chat though.

• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear) - No.

• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow) - Never happened.

• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books - I'm happy to lend a pen, or a spare textbook.

• treat the floor as a bin - no.

• deface books - no.

• break pens etc - no.

• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice) - mobiles are not allowed in lessons, if I see one I confiscate it and they get it back at the end of the day.