to think that if you let the students in your class do any of these things you are doing them a disservice?

[pickledsiblings]

• listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant)
• eat and/or drink (not water obviously)
• get up and walk around at will
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear)
• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow)
• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books
• treat the floor as a bin
• deface books
• break pens etc
• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice)

All opinions most welcome!

Any teachers willing to admit to any/all of these? Would be particularly interested in hearing your justifications.

If you're in the process of picking schools for your DD, presumably you will know about 'value added'? I think that is a very good measure for how much progress your DD will make whilst she is there - surely that is the most important thing, not what happens in classes that your DD is unlikely to be in? (making massive assumption here btw)

I am not sure whether to take you seriously or not tethers . I am a teacher. Just returned after 10 years out and resigned after half a term. I seriously do not know how you all do it. Hats off to the lot of you. Still, my brief foray was enlightening and I will not be sending my DD to that particular school.

Thanks for all of the contributions - I still haven't decided whether or not to write a letter to the Head/Governors outlining my concerns.

pickled - from both your threads I honestly believe you think that schools are like the lovely novels that we all used to read as kids, i.e. Malory Towers.

Modern teenagers are a different breed! They swear (I will not believe anyone who says their teenager doesn't swear if they think they can't be heard!), they prefer to sit anywhere to eat rather than queue in a dinning room, they 'forget their equipment', they will sneak food when they think no one is watching. However, not many dry hump .

As your DD is about to start in secondary school I think you need to have a dip into reality rather than the idealistic view you hold. I teach in a very successful school and we do have (apart from the dry humping!) these behaviours exhibited every day and as others have told you, the battles are selected to suit the class/student.
But, although we have these behaviours displayed we have a high GCSE and A level rate (which includes students who get into Oxbridge) from a low performing/very poor city.

So are you saying you have taught at the school you are considering for your DD?

Pickled, I don't think any of those things are right. We sent dd to a local state school, outstanding, with excellent results and excellent reputation. There had been a new head and all of a suddent standards went out of the window. There was constant disruption, swearing at staff, bullying, thieving, violence, etc, etc.. The head claimed there was nothing to be done and the school was a comprehensive with a diverse intake. The previous head had managed to deal with it very successfully. The original, dedicated, committed staff started to peel off. Our dd peeled off at the end of Y8.

Luckily we had the means to send her independent. I can honestly say my eyes were opened. It was horrific and I don't mind being battered on here by teachers for saying it, it did nothing to impress upon me the professionalism of the teaching profession overall. Individually some of the staff were fantastic, the governors, however, imo were a bunch of professional committee sitters and joining them would have been a waste of time.

The girls at the indy are not all little angels but if they misbehave there are consequences. Since September there has been a one day suspension and for another girl a three day suspension. The latter girl and her family are in no doubt she is on her last chance and if she puts one more foot wrong it will farewell and not a fond one.

I am sorry you have been so lambasted on here. If teachers thought those things were wrong they would not happen and the majority would be able to learn and to fulfil their potential.

pickledsiblings - I attended a course over the summer where all the things in the list were going on in the lecture theatre.

I am 48 and there were a few others in the class my age or a bit younger and we were all shocked at the way the 18 -20 yr olds showed huge disrespect to those who were teaching us and those students who wnated to learn.

My expectation (vs. reality below)

• listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant) NO
• eat and/or drink (not water obviously) No INCLUDING WATER are they're going to die of dehydration in less than an hour?
• get up and walk around at will No, unless part of the lesson (co-operative working perhaps)
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear) Absolutely not. Straight to disciplinary
• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow) WHAT???? Surely this can't be real
• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books Happens, but I'm not happy. Detention.
• treat the floor as a bin No
• deface books ABSOLUTELY NO
• break pens etc No
• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice) No mobiles allowed

I have 2 teaching jobs... one 0.6 public sector, one 0.4 independent sector. In my Independent: NONE of these things would happen, EVER. The pupils learn well and are happy. In my State (rated "Good"): ALL off them happen and are virtually uncontrollable in spite of best efforts (except the dry humping thing). I spent every penny of my two salaries sending my own DC (now university aged) to independent school. Sorry.

I know that I have been lucky with my DC's education but I always regarded my role at secondary school was to make sure my kids turned up, on time, in a fit state to learn ie enough sleep,having had breakfast and with any implements they were supposed to have, and for me to support the school by turning up at parents evenings, concerts etc. Other than that I trusted the teachers to do what they are trained to do a good deal better than I am.

In my classroom...

listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant) - No. Not even Sixth Form.

• eat and/or drink (not water obviously) They are allowed a drink if they ask first. Sometimes I buy my Yr 11s sweets because they're my favourites and work their socks off. I baked a cake for last year's Yr 11s at the end of the year. They ate it in class.
• get up and walk around at will I teach drama - walking around is encouraged.
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear) This is definite case of picking your battles. If a student swears at me or at another student, in an offensive manner, then I will go through the appropriate sanction procedure. If someone swears under their breath and I know they're having a crap day, then I will probably let it go.
• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow) Um... no - like pretty much everyone else, I have never experienced this.
• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books Easier to lend a pen than to make a big deal of it.
• treat the floor as a bin No - I always pull them up on it and request that the rubbish is put in the bin.
• deface books No. They don't have work books in my lesson, but we use a number of texts/scripts etc and I am very clear about treating them with respect.
• break pens etc - if it's their own pen, then I don't bother. If they break someone else's then I will go through the relevent procedure.
• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice) Mobiles are not allowed to be used in classrooms. If I see one, I will take it and it goes to reception for the rest of the day. If a student has their phone taken from them more than once, then it can only be collected by a parent/carer.

OP, I am stunned that you NOW say you are/were a teacher. On neither this thread nor the other did you suggest that, despite repeated requests from other posters. Why the secrecy?

I think you have to bear in mind what a different breed today's teenagers are. They use their mobile phones constantly - we didn't because they didn't exist.

I find your attitude towards teachers utterly bizarre, given that you claim to be one.

Boney

Mathan - I'm not for one second suggesting that 'the inmates should run the asylum' - in fact, if you read my earlier comments you'll see that I would challenge every one of the situations mentioned in the OP. I don't take any shit in my classroom, but I don't see how the dry humping can be the fault of the teacher at the front of the room.

"I still haven't decided whether or not to write a letter to the Head/Governors outlining my concerns."

Oh, I would. Bet they could do with cheering up.

Good luck

I'm still confused. Pickled, did you teach in the school you are discussing? Did these things happen in your classroom?

In that case, were you doing your students a disservice? The original post reads as a criticism of teachers in this school "pretending not to notice" the behaviour.

In my classroom, pupils don't (or are challenged if they try to):

• listen to music players whilst completing work
• eat and/or drink (not water obviously)
• get up and walk around at will
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear)
• dry-hump each other (not that I have witnessed this!)
• deface books
• break pens etc
• use their mobiles for texting

A lot of the above is normal teenage behaviour in school.

Pupils do routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, especially the ones who are low ability and/or from poorer homes. I spend a fortune on pens.

Littering will result in a detention. I have plenty of bins in my classroom.

I have a shoebox in my classroom. You can borrow a pen if you don't have one but you have to put a shoe in the box. I will give you back the shoe at the end of the lesson when you give me back the pen. Oddly enough I still have the same number of pens I had in September!

It is half term. I may have been drinking wine.

But regardless some of these comments are mad. We are talking about children. Kids. Young, as yet, unformed adults. Many of the things listed they would like to do all of the time. But consider this. Schools still work on a 50s model in which factory working was the end game, however realistically our kids are not going to be on assembly lines (not a snob thing we have no manufacture left) and so skills like sitting still till
Bells ring are much less a good thing. Probably a good thing but it does change th questions about sitting in classes not eating, talking, walking about doesn't it.
After all how many of you work a job where you cant have a drink, wAlk about, go to the loo, check your mobile whenever you want?
I can't. But I teach.
Anyway, my point was, doing these things, or wanting to do them don't mean you don't want to learn (dry humping excepted!) and it is up to teachers to decide if they can run a successful lesson with some or all of them going on.

enjolraslove, I am not sure our Independent Schools were ever preparing students for working on an assembly line yet from this thread (and my experience) it seems that they, along with some State Grammar Schools, are the only schools where the types are behaviour in my OP are given zero tolerance.

I think that means something, I'm just not sure what.

pickled - have you actually read the answers from teachers? It is not about most schools not having 'zero tolerance' it is about adapting to the kids in front of you and sometimes the bigger picture means not having the lesson start with a battle over not having a pen.

Unless you have visited every classroom in every school it is a very sweeping generalisation you hold that only independent and some grammar schools have this behaviour policy.

I have stated earlier in the thread that some of the issues you have brought up I do allow in my classroom when it suits - the exam figures show that my students are very successful so who is to say that your view is correct?

AGHGHGH!!!! pickled- what IS your problem? The vast majority of teachers who have responded on this thread have made it clear that they do not accept the behaviour your OP describes, yet hardly any have stated what sort of school they work in. Your assertion that only independent and grammar schools are any good is starting to grate.

I get it- you've resigned from a teaching job in a school with no discipline. Perhaps you weren't suited to that school. But from what I can gather, there's not much chance of your own DCs going to that school so why are you making such a big deal of it? You seem to have a serious axe to grind and just can't let it go.

I am not sure our Independent Schools were ever preparing students for working on an assembly line yet from this thread (and my experience) it seems that they, along with some State Grammar Schools, are the only schools where the types are behaviour in my OP are given zero tolerance.

I think that means something, I'm just not sure what.

It DOES mean something. It means that Independent and Grammar schools contain pupils who are generally brighter and supported at home. UNlike non-selective state schools, where many students are neither of the above. Thus behaviour and motivation in those sectors is going to be better.

Bless. I'm beginning to believe that the OP just isn't very bright.

So only bright supported kids know how to/should be expected to behave ?

Honest question here - why does all this stuff go on in classrooms. I'm an old gimmer and finished secondary school education in 1983. We just didn't have this sort of disruption in the classroom. I'm not sure what would have happened to any pupils who did disrupt a class by swearing, continually breaking pens etc, because it just did not happen. Teachers seemed to have authority, weren't particularly out to be liked by pupils, and we all seemed to learn quite well.

dweezle; if you think about it, you and your classmates would have behaved in a different way to those in school in 1953.....Education has also vastly changed since 1953, 1983, 2011!

But in reality, but it doesn't happen all day every day. There are low levels disruptions and on occasion you have extreme behaviour and I know that when I was in school as a student we did swear under our breath (never would have dared to have been heard as my mum would have gone up the wall ). I did turn up without a pen and I know that in the lower sets the behaviour was far, far worse than in my set so it did go on.

But I think that we all have a rose tinted view of our own education and the truth is more in the open now due to Ofsted, league tables, the internet!

dweezle, Its because pupils know their rights, but don't have any responsibility to go with it. (IMHO)

dweezle - different times, and also slightly different issues.
Deliberately disrupting a class by swearing at a teacher - used to happen loads in my old school, has only ever happened to me once in my current school. however, swearing under their breath, random swearing, as another poster said - teenagers swear. Fact. All of them. The nice ones apologise if you call them on it, as a teacher you may choose to leave some under breath, not directed at you/another pupil swearing and concentrate on the bigger stuff.
Pens, i can lend them pens, i'd rather get on with the lesson Even in "nice" schools some students have mad home lives.
Trundles off to buy sweets for year 10 to ease the coursework pain.