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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

MN Jury - need perspective on potential paranoia

202 replies

ParanoidPrue · 14/02/2012 22:57

Right here goes - longtime MNer (although recently more lurking than posting) namechanging for some no holds barred, arse-kicking, truly impartial MN advice.

H and I married 14 years, 3 kids, fairly up and down marriage - typical rollercoaster - when it's good it's great, when it's not good it's really really shit. Dynamic shifted some six years ago whilst pregnant with DC1 when I discovered H had embarked on a fairly nasty text-messaging EA with a woman he met through work. Started when I was 7 mths pregnant, discovered when DC1 was four months old. Carried on for another six or seven months until I found a hidden phone by which time it had stopped. H at the time swore blind it was text messages only, I later discovered sometime after the birth of DC2 that he also telephoned her numerous times a day. He said he only met her once. We moved on ..sort of..had an unplanned DC3. During that time, there have been a couple of occasions when I've found questionnable texts. Rightly or wrongly, I've been checking up on him and both times caught it in the early stages. H is somewhat of a ladies man - I want to say was a ladies man but of course evidence shows that he still considers himself to be so.

There's the background - may be irrelevant but wanted to show H's history. Current situation is this - H and I fostered a friendship with a girl from the local nursery whilst I was pregnant with DC3 - let's call her Jane. She was DC2's keyworker and loved him to bits. H bought her flowers on her birthday (without discussing with me beforehand) and I thought nothing of it because he's fairly generous especially where he thinks kids may benefit. We decided to ask her to babysit DCs whilst I was in hospital. Rang her on the night i went into labour - she cancelled her plans and H picked her up and brought her round. She stayed with kids whilst H took me to hospital. He stayed with me a couple of hours and then went home - to be fair, they told him to. I thought nothing of it at the time. He was going to come first thing in the morning. We had discussed many times that I'd prefer he be with the kids and I would be fine on my own. In the event, he did come the next morning albeit five minutes after I gave birth.

Jane continued to come round ostensibly to see me and the kids. H would collect her and drop her home. He would literally be minutes in the car and often took one of the kids with him when doing this. We discussed that she was a bit of a pain in that she would often invite herself over and then stay far beyond her welcome (along the lines of until 1am in the morning when DC3 was a few weeks old). However we thought she was maybe lonely having not long broken up with her long-term bf.

DC and I went on hols with my parents when DC3 was about 8 months old. H couldn't come as he'd just started new job. We were only away a week but on my return I had texts from Jane asking to come over the following weekend which she did. H was totally different - he didn't offer to collect her or indeed drop her home. He went upstairs and had a bath and then went out. He has never done this with either Jane or indeed any of my friends. No matter how much of a twat he's being to me, he's always been super polite and welcoming to our guests and bent over backwards to see to their needs to the extent that I sometimes feel a bit redundant. Not the case on this occasion - he basically gave Jane the cold shoulder. After I took her home, I did tackle him on it and asked if something was up. He was so weird and dismissive that I really couldn't fathom why he behaved that why.

I shouldn't have but of course I did check his phone and lo and behold there were a number of text message exchanges between them, including one call from her to his phone at midnight. I went absolutely batshit crazy. Not least because he had deleted some of the texts - the ones left were fairly innocuous but still, the fact that he hadn't shared this with me even when I tackled him on his odd behaviour and had deleted some of the exchange left a very very bad taste in my mouth.

His attitude was to treat me as some mad crazy bitch who was making up stuff in her head. We tried to talk about it a number of times - our relationship went to hell. I did say to him on numerous occasions that I didn't think anything had happened not least because he had given her the cold shoulder the last time she visited. I asked specifically why she would call at midnight knowing he was alone. He said that he had no idea - he'd been half asleep so had just made excuses and hung up. Sounds plausible but his insistence that Jane was just a innocent young girl who'd simply made an error in judgement ringing him so late infuriated me for some reason. We stopped talking about it ..well, basically because we stopped talking. Only recently have we been slowly getting back on track after a particularly nasty argument a few weeks back.

Okay this is very long but to get to the crux of what advice I need...in a nutshell! Jane has only texted me once in the last four months (since our holiday) to ask to come over. She has texted H and telephoned him about three times, the last time saying that she couldn't get hold of me. H rang her back and left her a voicemail on one occasion when he got short shrift from me for making apologies for me as if I was being unreasonable. So far as I know, he's ignoring her (I'm no longer checking his phone). Last week, I deleted Jane from FB - firstly because the whole thing is doing my fucking head in and secondly because she had some godawful link to a photoalbum named "Cockalicious" or something equally tasteless. DC1 (7) often reads over my shoulder and I don't fancy answering that question. She's obviously twigged and has, in the space of two hours tonight, texted me twice, rang me and sent me a private fb message.

So what the fucking fuck do I do? Am I totally mad? Should I be apologising to Jane and to H for being some mad old paranoid bint? I'd come to terms with the fact that I was never going to know exactly what happened whilst I was away but I was pretty sure H wouldn't be such a fucking plonker to shit on his own doorstep and be willing to throw our relationship away which is what would happen if I caught him doing anything (and I mean anything) untoward again. My gut says ignore her messages and delete delete delete. But part of me wonders whether I should meet her and just let her know why I'm not interested in pursuing a friendship with her. She's old enough (21 yrs) to know what's appropriate and even though she certainly may have a crush on H going on her past behaviour, she should know that I'm not exactly going to just brush that under the carpet.

Anyway - if you've managed to read this far, congratulations - give yourself a shiney!

OP posts:
GoingForGoalWeight · 15/02/2012 01:04

Relate/couple counselling? I'm so sorry.

ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 01:09

Thank you Going that means a lot. I'd love to go for couples counselling - I do want to fight for us. We're a good team and I think we could be great. Sadly I don't think he'd go for it. Not unless I left. He knows what I'm planning but he won't discuss it - almost as if he won't accept it. He just keeps saying he's never cheated. We've always been big talkers but lately we don't seem to have anything to say. I don't want it to be over but it really seems like it is.

That said - I still want to bloody know what happened with Jane!

OP posts:
inatrance · 15/02/2012 01:10

Glad you got a giggle at least tonight Prue. Smile Im just off to bed too, but I just wanted to say that even though you must feel wretched atm, you know in your heart and your gut what is what. The sun WILL shine again, please don't let this man take your hope. There are good men out there who would never, ever treat you like that and one day, when you have healed from this (and you will heal, with time and patience with yourself) you will meet someone who will reciprocate and deserve your love.

For now, just start trusting yourself, be gentle and kind to yourself. You have done nothing wrong and you deserve to be happy. Take time to figure out what you want. Sleep well.

ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 01:13

Thank you Inatrance night x

OP posts:
GoingForGoalWeight · 15/02/2012 01:24

Find out the truth, jusy go to her house, unannounced, tell nobody prior to visit. Make sure Jane at home before you knock the door. Hang around a bit or put on fake accent from a callbox and ask if she is home, first. Just lie if you want t if she asks if it was you on the phone. It's the least of your worries. Be clever or you'll miss one of the best options to find out the truth. Catch Jane off guard .

scaryteacher · 15/02/2012 09:33

'But I can't understand why she would keep befriending me and coming over to play with my children if really she's only interested in my husband.' If that's the only way she can see him, then yes, she would do that, and hence also the phone calls saying she couldn't get hold of you; she wants to feed her obsession by contacting him. You are right when you say you need to look at this from the perspective of an enamoured 21 yo who thinks your dh is the epitome of 'older man' experience.

I think she's made a pass, he hasn't responded, hence the cold shoulder treatment. He is scared that given his track record you'll believe it's his fault (and who could blame you?). The not talking about you leaving is also a male reaction; if he ignores it, it won't happen, so he chooses not to engage with it.

I'm not one for cutting philandering males a break - I watched my dad break my Mum's heart twice; but in this instance, I think he may not be at fault.

I don't think you are paranoid (takes one to know one), just wary; but my motto is, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

CervixWithASmile · 15/02/2012 10:02

I'm sorry to say but if I had to guess I would say she is infatuated with him and he has enjoyed that and led her on. It probably went too far and now it's no longer fantasy and now reality she wants even more and he is backing off because it's no longer exciting. That's probably why she's contacting you as she's getting nowhere with him.

I truly hate to say this but if she really was infatuated with him the chances of her not waiting up on the off chance he'd come home the night you were in hospital is low.

So, all of this is complete conjecture but I'm not surprised you have doubts.

GiserableMitt · 15/02/2012 10:31

I thought I'd read all the way through to se if someone else had posted what I was thinking. Sadly Cervix said it...

I hope you get to the bottom of this. Good luck...

ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 11:19

Thanks guys for the morning thoughts - it's all helping. Woke up feeling tearful - may be because had a bad night with baby and hellish cold myself...

Mini update re Jane - she called this morning on the landline from her work number so I didn't twig before I picked up. I sort of fobbed her off as I was seeing to DC2 at the time. She says she'll ring back at lunchtime. I'm thinking I'll tell her I'll speak to her tonight. Ask what time she's back from work as if I'm intending to call back but then turn up instead (provided H is back from work - I'll just tell him I'm going to the shops). I think I need to speak to her first if I have any chance at all of getting this mess in my head sorted.

She may bullshit me but at least I would have let her know face to face that I'm aware of at least her inappropriate behaviour. I'll couch it in terms where it's not clear that I have no idea what H has done and hopefully she'll be forthcoming. I just wish that H would be more upfront about this whole thing then I wouldn't have to go through all this shit - I could just cut her off if it's from her side and forget about it.

OP posts:
ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 11:24

BTW - I have to go and see to the kids so will log off for a while and check back later to see if anyone posts any ideas re: handling this the right way.

I feel kind of lame relying on you guys to handhold me through this but I need the strength from somewhere to deal with this in a way that might bring me some peace. I don't have a chance of going through this stuff in detail with anyone in RL - it's all so mortifyingly teenager-ish and just seems so trivial in comparison to RL problems. But it's doing my head in all this wondering and waiting for the right answer so keep it coming if you can - it's all helping me loads.

OP posts:
kelly2525 · 15/02/2012 12:05

I would simply say, Ive seen the texts on husband`s phone, would you like to tell me your side of the story?

Dont explain anymore, then see what her reaction is.

Proudnscary · 15/02/2012 12:12

I'm really sorry you are going through this, you poor thing. Of course you need handholding!

Your husband has been sleeping with this girl for sure.

Are you sure about confronting her?

What do you really want to gain from it?

The real issue here is that you are married to a serial cheat.

I think you need to start to come to terms with that. Because he will do this again. And again.

x

TheCuntwormUnderfoot · 15/02/2012 12:29

As Proud said.

Jane isn't important (to him, either, I'll bet). I know, you know that - you ain't daft :)

If it wasn't her it would be someone else.

You could 'sort' this, and you'll be back in the same situation with another 'Jane' in a year's time.

'The real issue here is that you are married to a serial cheat' - YES. A cheat in thought and deed, a liar, a low-grade fantasist. You'll NEVER feel secure, loved and confident with this slippery person as your life partner. Never.

No matter how you feel about him, it is not worth living the life you will live - full of doubt, anger, resentment - to continue enjoying the feelings his physical presence conveys. Especially as sooner or later, you WILL stop respecting and loving him completely because of it.

I can see why you want to find out what's gone on - I would too - just don't lose sight of the real issue. To be happy and to raise happy children, you need to not continue to be disrespected and treated shoddily by this man.

DodieSmith · 15/02/2012 12:30

Ive seen the texts on husband`s phone, would you like to tell me your side of the story?

That's the one.

Just to say, the fact that someone is sweet and innocent doen't mean they wouldn't do this sort of thing.

ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 13:32

Right - well she did call as promised - I fobbed her off again but said I'd call her back tonight at 7pm. What I intend to do is go round and see her then rather than call. I'm going to take Kelly's advice and say that I've seen H's phone and talked to him about it, what does she have to say? Obviously not going to tell H - haven't told him about her calls/texts/fb message and defo not going to tell him about meeting her tonight. I have no way of knowing if she's told him I'm speaking to her tonight but I've tried to keep it bright and breezy so that there's no sign that I'm going to do anything but have a chat.

This feels awful. I hate all the subterfuge and yes ProudandScary I'm totally unsure about this type of confrontation. I'm under no illusions that it will in any way solve the problems I'm having with H which are far more wide-ranging than this. I just feel that I'm being given an opportunity this once to get the other woman's side. There have been so many occasions where I've shyed away from confronting potential OWs because I'm worried about how I'll come across to both them and H. This thread has convinced me that I'm not a nutter and I do deserve answers! They would indeed be better coming from H but since he's being so bloody-minded I shall have to look elsewhere.

TheWorm (can't bring myself to say c* - what a drip I am!), when you said this "Especially as sooner or later, you WILL stop respecting and loving him completely because of it" my blood ran cold because I think I'm already there. I do treat him shoddily even when he's trying to be nice because ...well... it just feels like too little too late. A case in point would be yesterday when he brought me home red roses which he hardly ever does - we don't really celebrate Valentine's Day. I told him he shouldn't have wasted his money and that they were already dead and I've just left them on the side. I can't bring myself to put them in a vase because they just feel like a sign of another lie - that he loves me. I can see I'm really hurting him but he's hurt me so much over the years that I just can't bring myself to empathise with him anymore. This man who I once idolised is now on the shit-heap along with all the declarations of love which mean nothing in the context of his actions towards me.

OP posts:
ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 13:36

Scaryteacher and Cervix - I really hope you're right. If he actually hasn't done anything then I feel that we could move on - with a lot of work and some sort of counselling to get to the bottom of why he continues to cheat and lie about situations even where his actions may not be cheating. The bottom line for me is that he needs to acknowledge what he's doing is wrong, even if it doesn't feel wrong to me. I do feel sometimes that I'm asking too much - I want it all, all the love I pour into him, I want it back and loyalty to me is a key part of that. Otherwise I want nothing from him. It feels unreasonable when I put it like that but that's what I want. He needs to understand that but I'm really doubtful he will ever be able to give me what I want.

OP posts:
Proudnscary · 15/02/2012 13:40

Ok well good luck.

To be brutally honest, you given OW many, many hours to think up her story and collude with your husband so I think your chance to hear 'the truth' is gone.

I also still think it's irrelevant what she does or doesn't say. You have huge issues in your marriage - and you don't trust or respect your husband.

Again, I am really so sorry for you as you must be feeling wretched, you don't deserve this xx

porcamiseria · 15/02/2012 13:46

OP, it does sound like he had an affair with her, given what you have laid out

so this is just my advice, not necessarily right, just advice

  1. trim her, big time,. just fucking trim her. TRIM THE CUNT, as whatever happended she texted him , has boundary issues and she aint no friend of yours

  2. you need to decide what you are going to do about your marriage, as it does sound like he has fidelity bypass. I dont know if MN will help you, but you DESERVE a marriage where partner is fairful and you dont have to live with this headfuck. whatever you do, assert yourself as a wife you deserve so much more

I am sorry

ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 13:50

Thanks ProudandScary - I think you may be right but then again if there's a chance I can get to the truth somehow, I do want to grab it with both hands.

Just reading your post makes me shocked that two people could collude in that way to hurt another - I just can't see it in both of them but maybe that's my problem. Just a quick read of the relationships board tells me to what lengths partners are willing to go to hide the truth and how those they're cheating with will help them cover their tracks.

I just can't get my head around why - I've told H many many times that divorce wouldn't mean that I would stop being his friend and stop him from seeing the kids. I've told him that if he's unhappy he only has to say for whatever reason and I will give him space and time to find himself. He had a lot of responsibility with his family before we were married and I'm always very aware that he never had a chance to please himself as I did in my past. He never lived alone or without the responsibility of having to get dinner on the table or ensure he's about for hospital appointments etc. I've given him so many outs - I can't understand why he wouldn't take them if he was unhappy.

that's the worse thing for me - the thought that I've been clinging onto him for dear life for the past 14 years when all he wants is to be free. I couldn't bear it.

OP posts:
RVF400 · 15/02/2012 13:54

I'm sad to read your story OP as it sounds so similar to my parents when I was a teenager. I really hope you get the truth but I agree with ProudnScary that it might be unlikely now. Serial liars are very good, and very good at making the people around them feel like they are the bad guys for doubting. My dad was an expert and pretty much destroyed my poor mum's self confidence over a period of 10 years. I even fell out with mum over it once when I was about 15 and told her she shouldn't keep believing his lies (this was about 5 years in). She loved him too much really. His anger, controlling nature and lack of respect were pretty similar to what you're describing, sorry Sad.

The upside is, now they are separated they actually get on quite well and mum is 1000% more confident and happy. They do have a nice friendship now that there is no "control".

I hope it turns out well for you. Never worry about what other people are thinking, you have to put yourself first. (That's what I keep telling mum!)

porcamiseria · 15/02/2012 13:55

OP he probably loves you to bits. He is just a cheat, many men and women!) are. they want to have their cake and eat it.

I suspect he is happy with you and the marriage. he just strays. I work with men like this

ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 13:56

Porca - I did a bit choky laugh when I read your post. I love it "Trim the Cunt" - that's so what I want to do! I'm also loving "Fidelity Bypass" - that's what I love about MN - good advice with humour in an articulate manner!

Seriously, I appreciate what you say - this is just one of many signs of a serious problem which is not easily solved. In some ways, getting an answer from Jane will simply confuse the issues but as you say, the headfuck is too bad for me to keep carrying alone. I may as well fuck with her head if it makes me feel better

OP posts:
porcamiseria · 15/02/2012 13:59

meh fuck with her head, go for it! she needs to learn. Be very scary , TEACH THE 21 YEAR LITTLE SKANK A LESSON !!!

I always get wary of relationship advice on MN, but in this post everything is pretty spot on, look you know the score, you just need to decide where you are going. GOOD LUCK

ParanoidPrue · 15/02/2012 14:00

RVF - funnily enough my Dad was a terrible cheat and I remember that I found out about a long-term affair and told my Mum when I was 17. Her response was to freeze me out for a while because she didn't want to hear me tell her she should get a divorce. Sadly she's still with my Dad who's now too old and sick to cheat on her. I think she feels like she won but it looks to me as if she got the booby prize!

Porca - that's what H says - he loves me to bits. But what the hell does that mean? If I want fidelity and he doesn't want to make that sacrifice then it's not love, is it? To me true love is reciprocated - if it's one sided it's just infatuation. I know my concept of love may be a bit warped - after all, if I hadn't sacrificed so much of myself to H then I wouldn't be so angry and resentful now. I've told him that I don't expect that level of sacrifice because when I look back I know it was wrong. But I do expect him to put me first especially in situations where all he stands to gain is a bit of titillation but what he stands to lose is me.

OP posts:
RVF400 · 15/02/2012 14:01

Totally agree Porca, that was my dad all over. In fact I feel rather sorry for him now as he is old & alone and I think really regrets all the pain he caused. He definitely still loves my mum but its way too late to take it all back.

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