... to think my almost 11 year old DDs should be able to sit in a restaurant and converse with their parents/grandparents without electronic games/phones/stuff to do?

[sandyballs]

DH thinks I am and wanted to hand over his i-phone to 'keep them amused'. They are nearly 11 FFS not 5. To be fair they do normally behave nicely in restaurants but last night they were bloody awful, it was embarrassing. It was MILs birthday and the DDs wriggled and moaned and pulled faces, one got under the table . I had to separate them.

They're off to secondary school in Sept so surely they should be able to spend a couple of hours in a restaurant chatting to the family without behaving like a couple of arses.

Reading at the table was never allowed in our house - with the minor exception of the morning paper at the breakfast table (Dad) but he would discuss what he was reading so it was less exclusive.

I don't allow reading at the table either. DS eats most meals at the table, DH has his breakfast before us so eats it where he likes. DS and I eat at table at lunch and all of us at dinner. The person I have most trouble with re. table manners is actually DH! who will get up and leave the table as soon as he's finished inhaling his meal, who tries to read the local paper at the table, who insists on having the tv on for EVERY meal (he has it on all the time even when he's not in the room if we're not there). He is also a shocker for keeping his phone on him at all times when we're out - but he does leave the table to take "important" work calls (they're nothing that couldn't wait half an hour but he doesn't see it that way. If he was on another business call, they'd have to wait but again, he can't see it)

I also know adults who text during meals with friends, or take calls - don't know anyone who actually plays games while in company though, how rude is that?! Talk about advertising that you find someone else's company too boring!

Mobiles are a useful tool and I'm not without one when I'm working or out at night but do forget when out in the day because of my age - not Alzheimer's just because it's not my habit.

If you're a 14 year old on a night out without her baby that's reassuring but how many calls do you expect? More than if you were 34? Do you worry more or less? Or do you have a false sense of security because you're instantly contactable? How useful is the person who's contacting you?

Teenagers were missing trains, getting drunk and getting stuff nicked before the advent of mobiles because I've done it.

In my case, I'd argue that it didn't happen to me that much because it was more difficult to call my parents for help. I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just saying that that was the way it was.

Isn't that what part of this thread is about - young people needing to be resourceful?

I maintain that I find phones on the table or in pockets or bags really intrusive because people fidget with them.

I don't accept that many people, even under contract (because I've done that) need to take calls. If that happens in most cases you tell people at work to use their initiative instead of calling you because that's what I've done too.

its not as simple as telling someone to use their initiative when you work in SS with severerly vulnerable, unfortunately damaged and violent children tho, if they need you there they need you there..

and i repeat i do NOT fiddle with my phone, infact it basically doesnt come out of my bag, i cant remember the last time someone phoned as i only use it for txt pretty much, if someone phoned it would be the babysitter or a child type emergency, thankfully that hasnt happened yet but i do want contact if it were to.

Wow, loads of replies here, thank you all. Interesting to hear all the different views, but mostly agreeing that at 11 my DDs should have been able to cope with a meal and a chat without resorting to bad behaviour.

I agree with the posters who said many children are being brought up expecting to be constantly entertained. It can't be a good thing, it's good to be bored now and then.

Perhaps they had had enough of the GPs company seeing as they were with them all day, perhaps they had run out of conversation with them but they hadn't seen me and DH all day and we tried our best to get them talking.

They rung mother in law yesterday and apologised for their silly behaviour and for spoiling her birthday.

Going back to the poster who mentioned eating out with my own mother who has dementia, she still loves eating out, it's probably one of her greatest pleasures, which is why I continue to do it even though it can be stressful. Probably more stressful than two stroppy 11 year olds actually, but at least she doesn't sit under the table . Not yet, anyway. She does have a tendency to insult fellow diners though. That's why the DD's are allowed electrical gadgets in those circumstances.

I've calmed down a bit today and I will be setting out very clearly my expectations for our next meal out.

maryz I don't have teenagers but I've been one and been in a number of worrying situations by accident rather than design.

At 15 just like your daughter I was at a youth club where the police were called after some boys had torn a cigarette machine off the wall and looted it. They were long gone but the club owners and the police held all the rest of us innocents at the club because they were nasty bullies.

We were allowed to leave after the last train had gone. It was about 3 miles from home and my parents weren't on the phone so I couldn't use a call box. Even if they had had a phone, they didn't have a car.

A group of us walked home because we'd been told never to leave each other. If they hadn't been going my way I'd have asked to stay with a friend until morning. If there was no one I'd have asked the police to take me to their station because I was a vulnerable child. I was very confident about doing that kind of thing because my parents are Know Your Rights kind of people and brought me up to be one too.

We had fun walking home but my parents were worried sick until I turned up. They did hold on to the hope that they'd raised a sensible and resourceful child.

I'm sure yours are too. I'm not advocating throwing teenagers to the wolves and seeing who survives but if you give young people sensible advice like: always keep a bit of money in a safe place, try to get a cab, try to phone, never leave each other even if you've rowed, always walk rather than accepting lifts from strangers or drunk people, ask for help from an official, stay the night in a safe place then they will probably survive most things.

If all young people know how to do is to get on the mobile to their mum then they are in trouble if they don't have a mobile for any reason or God forbid, they trust the wrong person.

I do find people checking their phones, even on silent, annoying but we'll agree to differ because we're different people with different experiences

OP: sorry for the hijack. I don't think your kids are bad. It's just planning and expectations. Hope it's good next time.

Okay maryz. I did say I was sure your daughter knew what to do and that mobiles are a useful tool.

I also said I found mobiles on silent annoying because people tend to check them, sometimes but mostly not in the case of dire emergencies, but that others are allowed to hold different views to me.

As far as I'm aware it's not against the law for people to check their phones in my company and it's also legal for me to get a bit annoyed with them when they do it.