... to think my almost 11 year old DDs should be able to sit in a restaurant and converse with their parents/grandparents without electronic games/phones/stuff to do?

[sandyballs]

DH thinks I am and wanted to hand over his i-phone to 'keep them amused'. They are nearly 11 FFS not 5. To be fair they do normally behave nicely in restaurants but last night they were bloody awful, it was embarrassing. It was MILs birthday and the DDs wriggled and moaned and pulled faces, one got under the table . I had to separate them.

They're off to secondary school in Sept so surely they should be able to spend a couple of hours in a restaurant chatting to the family without behaving like a couple of arses.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask children of this age to do something like this for a couple of hours. My children don't actually have any electronic stuff at all (oh I lie elder dd has a shuffle which she sometimes listens to) - the oldest is nearly 11 and I do think it is very important to learn the art of being a bit bored and not being constantly entertained. A friend of mine has children the same age as my two eldest (8 and almost 11) and they cannot even make a car journey with watching a dvd or playing a ds - they did this to their children imho by constantly entertaining them and that is your choice. It is my choice not to do that.

Sadly I agree Le Queen.
Self reliance, patience is a skill rarely learnt nowadays, boredom is rarely experienced, and the loss is creativity and use of imagination.

Well said Hardgoing

There has to be a bit of flexibility depending on the occasion/circumstances. They are just children and allowances should be made during a late night meal.

If they had been allowed a phone for 20 mins it would have stopped the silly behaviour. They could have then been spoken to after the meal and told exactly what kind of behaviour you expect next time there is a meal.

IMO that is much nicer for everyone, especially MIL, than having to tell them off constantly in front of everyone.

But the OP has said her DC usually behave!! This was a one off.

Everyone is just saying how wonderful their DC are and how awful a parent you are if you get out something to entertain your DC. There is a middle ground you know.

There is a huge difference between a child being on a phone/DS for 3 hours whilst in a restuarant and letting them have half an hour on a phone when they have already behaved beautiffuly for 2 hours.

Learning to entertain yourself is a valuable skill. I know some extremely needy people who need stimulation and people to pay attention to them ALL THE TIME.

I'd expect an 11 year old to behave appropriately when taken out to dinner. I wouldn't expect them to hide behind electronic toys or take colouring books. Let alone get up and start wandering around beyond a visit to the lavs. I wouldn't want a child to be "seen and not heard" (these are not Victorian times) but I'd expect them to make conversation and be well mannered and I can't see why 11 year old should assume this is an unreasonable expectation.

What happened in the past? Well for sure, people did go out to eat in restaurants (at least my family did!) and my mother would have been mortified if I had hidden under the table. Even all these years later, I don't like to imagine what the consequences would have been!

I think you have to adjust expectations according to age though. But at 11, you shouldn't expect to take toys out to dinner in order for your child to behave reasonably!

The OP said her children usually behave; but didn't on this occasion.
The reason being that is was later than usual.
Behaving well in "ideal conditions" is to be expected. Behaving badly due to a change of routine or schedule is not.
It wasn't about them. It was celebrating their MIL's birthday. They were expected to behave well in slightly adverse circumstance.
The need to educate and not constantly pander to bad behaviour and compromise is why parents have these fights/conflicts. Giving in and bowing to the "easy-life" is the easy option. Saying No is a lot harder.
Saying No is usually the right thing to do. Saying yes or compromise is the happy valley of childcare. The path of least resistance.

Agree with you OP. And those of you who are suggesting colouring pens... . At the age of 10? They're not toddlers! They should be capable of joining in a conversation, listening politely, and if they're bored, tough!

I think a 10-11year old should be able to sit,behave and participate in a family meal out.But the OP did say that they'd been stuck inside at the GP's all day,and that the meal was significantly later than expected
so in this case it sounds as if it wasn't about them being bored for the duration of the meal,but about them having beeen bored all day,and then being both tired and hungry.(I'm sympathetic about that as even as an adult I find it hard to keep on an even keel in the evening if I am tired and hungry,feeble I know )
And also,if it was the same set of grandparents,having already had a whole day to talk to their grandparents about anything that might have been a good conversational topic during the meal.
I think they should have behaved better,but I also think that the whole event might have gone better if it had been organised differently,though I realise this might not have been possible.

I've never been out to dinner with an adult who read a book/played on their phone/got up and wandered about the restaurant while having dinner with me or in a group. It's never happened. (Obviously adults do make & accept calls or send texts, but for the most part I've not had this done instrusively).

And I know some of these adults must have been brought up with very different rules - books at table or no books/ wandering okay or not okay/ never went to a restaurant until 18 or started at 3 months.

My point is that some 'table manners' issues seem to disappear with age. A 10-year-old who cannot get through an adult meal without a book to read will not be a 25-year-old who does the same. So while it's fine to impose your own rules and enforce them (we don't allow gadgets/games/books or wandering), I don't think doing so at some meals out will turn them into social pariahs.

What's rude at 30 (reading a book during a family meal out) is not necessarily rude at 14, depending on the company and the situation.

I hate phones when we are out a meal takes an hourish its not a hardship to put the phones away I dont allow it when we go out dd1 is the worst for it shes almost 19 and i glare if she glances at the phone , I saw a familiy out last week the girl looked about 13 had the phone in front of her face the boy about 9 had the DS dad was glued to an IPhone and mum was supping lots of , I thought whats the point of going out as a familiy if you are ignoring each other ,

Agree with LeQueen; sorry OP but your daughters need a lesson in manners. They aren't' little children but behaved like spoilt brattish young children. Anybody who says "Oh my days, blah blah blah" to an adult would get short shrift from me. How stupid and foolish it sounds. Who do your DD's think they are?

I think that any child almost of secondary school age who cannot have a conversation at the dinner table without flouncing and making self-absorbed noises really doesn't have much going for them. Teach them now... and treat them as the immature children they are if they behave like this again.

those suggesting colouring pens etc were saying that for small children ie toddlers, i said my 3 yr old would have some colouring stuff maybe but my 7,9 and 12yr olds would be expected to sit nicely and chat. i did actually ask them what they thought about playing with a phone/ds etc at the table, my 9 yr old gave me an odd look and said 'but we talk to each other at the table' i then said so when we go out to a restaraunt you think its ok not to have a ds or a phone to play with? he again looked like wth? and said yes its fine, we go and have a nice meal, its a treat and we sit and chat. i said was this boring and he said no, not really, why would it be?

my children are not perfect they have their moments and if they did when out then they would be removed from the situation and told their behaviour was not ok. thankfully they see a meal out as atreat (even tho we do it fairly frequently) its a social experience to be enjoyed.

the death stare works well in this house as well

and i agree with lequeen, kids are over entertained, my boys had an hour on the xbox earlier, then i said times up as agreed, my ds3 moped for a few mins and i said if he was going to sulk he could go to bed, or he could cheer up and play with his toys, read a book, whatever but no sulking. they then went off and have built lego models, done some colouring etc just played nicely, then helped make lunch and clear up, infact ds2 and ds3 fought over who was too wash up! in the end ds3 was happy to do the drying up! they are now playing with lego again.

i think children need to bored occasionally and certainly left to their own devices to entertain themselves!

maryz i agree, its rude to use a phone whilst out for a meal or in the cinema etc, like you i put mine on silent and have it in my bag if needed, but if i had to take a call ie childcare emergency or for dp work related (he is often on call) then i would excuse myself from the table and go outside the restaraunt and keep it as short as possible.

my sil ALWAYS has her phone on the table and is forever txting etc even during mealtime, i think this is why ds1 thought he should be allowed his phone actually, as it was after she was fiddling about with hers that he asked if he could get his out and i said NO its very rude to sit and play with/use your phone at the table. sil still continues to do so tho and at one point started playing a game on her phone and was wanting to show it to the boys, dp then intervened and said no its not polite and they are quite happy just sitting and talking.

I'm really surprised that reading at the table is considered bad manners. Up until around 15, I would read durring dinner, but it certainly did not stop me being part of the conversations. This was at home, though. We didn't eat out enough for me to remember whether I read then too.

I am a big believer in children being expected to behave, be polite and participate during events that they are invited / taken to. I also think it does them no harm to be bored every now and then.

I don't agree with electronic devices being used for entertainment purposes during dinner, especially when out at a birthday meal, irrespecive of the length of time they have been waiting. I suppose, by that same thread, I wouldn't expect them to be colouring in, playing with toys etc either: surely they are just versions of the same thing.

I wonder if children are used to needing these things as a result of parents wanting to keep LOs occupied while they discuss other things...maybe dinner time is not the time for these discussions? If you are all sat round the table together, a conversation in which everyone can join in is surely the most polite option?

I don't know how I will be with my DD when she is old enough to participate in dinners (atm she is 8 weeks old). But, I'd like to think that she will be happy finding her entertainment from those sat at the table with her, not a toy, gadget or book. However, I know one thing: she absoloutley would not be allowed to get down from the table to run/wander around or mess around under the table.

In your instance, OP, I would be making sure the DDs call their GM and apologise for their behaviour at her birthday dinner. The priveidges you have witheld from them would be witheld until the apologies were made. They embarassed you, too, with their behaviour, so if I were you I would expect an apology off them both too.

Reading at the dinner table wasn't allowed in our home, not ever, it would have been considered the height of rudeness. You might as well be in a railway cafe..

I think my position on all meal time activities is that it's rude if it locks other people out from joining in with you. Playing on your phone/DS/reading a book is rude because anyone else at the table now can't interact with you and is left feeling excluded, but a crossword or a drawing game between a few people is not because anyone who wants to join in can.

We went out for lunch for my birthday and I started getting fed up with the kids when they were getting fidgety. Looked at my watch when we left. We were there 4.5 HOURS. Poor kids. They were only ratty in the last twenty minutes or so, so actually they were angels to last so long.

I doubt they would have managed it late at night, at the second attempted restaurant, when starving, and having been stuck inside all day, though.

I still want to know how long OP was sat there for the meal. I bet it was in the region of 2+ hours.

It doesn't make you better than others if you have a phone on silent or vibrate in case of 'emergencies'.

What kind of 'emergencies' are you expecting? I'm not counting people who have real need to worry about their families but would like to get out now and then.

Neither am I talking about people who do worthwhile work, rather than people whose worklives are chaotic and choose to bother me with them.

If you get a message I don't care whether you absent the table to take it, but you aren't essentially any different to people who take calls or texts throughout.

That's fine, but just accept that you are being selfish and placing your 'needs' ahead of others in your own way.