... to think my almost 11 year old DDs should be able to sit in a restaurant and converse with their parents/grandparents without electronic games/phones/stuff to do?

[sandyballs]

DH thinks I am and wanted to hand over his i-phone to 'keep them amused'. They are nearly 11 FFS not 5. To be fair they do normally behave nicely in restaurants but last night they were bloody awful, it was embarrassing. It was MILs birthday and the DDs wriggled and moaned and pulled faces, one got under the table . I had to separate them.

They're off to secondary school in Sept so surely they should be able to spend a couple of hours in a restaurant chatting to the family without behaving like a couple of arses.

jubilee - i would still expect them to know how to behave

YANBU at all! we had this at a family meal a month or two ago, my ds1 who is 12 was wanting to play with his mobile we said NO, for one thing its bloody rude to sit and play on your mobile whilst sat at a table eating, be that at home or out! at that age they can sit and talk to whoever they are eating with.

we go out quite often with our 5 and they all know how to behave, we do take small toys ie toy cars and colouring stuff for our younger one, but they still sit at the table and behave.

we eat at the table for all our meals at home tho so they are used to sitting around the table and chatting eating etc, its an important part of the day in our house actually, a good chance to catch up and talk about what we have all been doing.

maybe i am old fashioned but i think manners in general and table manners are important and have raised my 5 accordingly!

How often do you go out to eat with the DD's, with or without others? Is it possible that they go so often they have become blase about it and it is no longer a treat? I think you have the right idea suggesting a babysitter next time. I would expect them to apologise to their gran for spoiling her birthday dinner as well.

I think when you re-start taking them, make some rules upfront. Book whether you think it will be busy or not. All electronic gadgets will be held by you until a point of your choosing during the meal, and then only given if their behaviour and manners have been immaculate, if not they don't get them back at all until the next day, again at a time of your choosing. Backchat and cheek will extend this time. You might like to remind them that they have brains to devise things to do when they are bored at grandparents, and also you work to provide them with their games and phones. They can reflect on that next time they want you to buy them something.

Yes OP we need to know what time it was by hte end of the meal, and how long they had been there before the silly behaviour.

I went out for a family meal recently and the only child was my cousin's 3 year old son. All he had with him was 1 little toy car which he put on the table and didn't touch. He ate his meal, he sat nicely, he talked to the adults, etc. He was perfectly behaved, and we were at the restaurant for nearly 3 hours.

There is nothing extraordinary about him. He is a normal little boy who is expected to behave at restaurants and so he does.

My nephew is a year older and cannot sit at a table for more than 5 minutes. The difference is that he is not expected to. We went out for a family meal and he was wandering around the restaurant. His other aunt told him to sit down and his mum said 'oh no, he's alright. He doesn't have to sit down.'

I would definitely expect 2 almost 11 year olds to know how to behave in a restaurant.

If I want my kids to behave (even now and the oldest is 15) I do two things: make sure they know this is the expectation, and how long the good behaviour is expected for; and give them time (ideally before and after) to let off steam.
However if they are extra hungry and are struggling with that whilst they wait I might give them something to occupy them. It also depends on the adults, as some adults aren't very good at chatting to kinds.

wandering around in a restaraunt it NOT ok, it can be dangerous for one thing if waitresses are carrying plates of hot food or drinks etc. when eating you sit at the table!

Sandy I've just reread your OP and you say that they do usually behave in restaurants. So something must have been different last night, maybe it was the fact they'd been inside all day?

Therefore I wouldn't be too hard on them today. Just remind them that you will expect their ususal behaviour next time.

We all do silly things sometimes well I do anyway

Yes, they should, and you were right to be cross / disappointed and to tell them that.

Not sure it's a symptom of a bigger problem though, if they usually behave. DD1 is 9 and does usually still need something to do at the table (like colouring) but that could be because DD2 is only 4. I wouldn't take something for DD1 to do if she was coming out with me by herself.

Sorry that should have been "I've just read your OP again"

My ds has always been part of a lot of restaurant meals and up until about 15 was delightful company and able to hold a conversation (even boring current affairs)with anyone! However once grunting set in I found the iphone a godsend he has now at 17 reverted to reasonable company but the phone is sometimes glanced at under the table ! The electronica is not the worst thing as they get older the BILL is! It gets enormous as they do

My children are very well behaved in restaurants, as are most children here in Belgium, but then we are realistic enough to know that sat waiting for food is incredibly boring. We always bring along colouring books for them to play with, or the nintendo, which after all, is just an electronic version of colouring books etc.

If they had been sat in the car, going from place to place, getting later, getting hungrier, and were then expected to sit nicely waiting for their food, with nothing to do, then I'm not surprised you had problems. And I think this is the problem with a lot of children in british restaurants, unrealistic expectations.

Even in Jamie's italian restaurant colouring pencils are provided.

'The electronica is not the worst thing as they get older the BILL is! It gets enormous as they do'

so true noddyholder! Taking my three children to a restaurant is beginning to cost a fortune!

exactly lequeen you just set down the ground rules from day one! when eating at home they are not allowed to get up and down from the table and wander around, so they dam well wont be doing it in a restaraunt!

obviuosly younger children, i am meaning babies and toddler, will need a bit more entertainment at the table and possibly taking out for a run around if there is a suitable outside area, but my 3 yr old can sit for a meal for 2hrs, he will sit and chat and maybe do some drawing etc, but he will stay sitting and just partake in what is a nice sociable event.

YANBU
However, my DD2 is that age and she is hopeless. She's really picky about food and tends to finish long before everyone else and then gets bored.
She can do adult conversation, she was brilliant with my cousins family on Sat.
I think GP are a bit boring, but mainly I think she feels trapped when restaurants and food is involved. At home she knows she can wander off, choosing to stay and talk is different to having to stay and talk.

YANBU. DS is 4 and manages to sit and behave through a meal in a restaurant although it is much harder to keep him sitting down if there are other children allowed to run around!

When we were children we were taken out a reasonable amount and always expected to sit and behave from a young age - by 10/11 we'd have been in big trouble if we'd played up like yours did! I am glad one of them is ashamed of herself, shame the other one isn't.

At home she knows she can wander off

We don't do that. Children have to ask if they may leave the table and may not normally do so unless the meal has finished and they get permission. Being allowed to just wander off at home will not help them not feel "trapped" when eating out.

We have allowed the dcs to bring DS/itouch occasionally if we know it's going to be long/boring, but made it clear that it's a one-off.

However, whoever mentioned adults sitting texting and checking emails on their phones has a very good point! I feel that more and more when I'm talking to someone they are texting at the same time and it's so rude! There should be a place like a cloakroom in restaurants where you have to leave your phone!

see at home, the rule is that whilst others are still eating, you stay at the table and chat! depending on the tiredness level of my toddler he may well get down from the table when he is finished, but he will ask, or be promted to ask that it is ok to do so.

i really dont like electronic devices at the table, a ds can be noisy, unless you use headphones which is very antisocial. i just think (and was brought up) that family mealtimes are important and ours have all sat around the table with us from being babies in arms, once old enough they went in a high chair, tripp trapp type thing at the table, its just what we have always done and they are used to what they know.

yes they have tried it on and we have had tantrums etc and when this happens they are removed from the table and sat down away from us until they can behave appropriately and they then come back to the table.

i grew up abroad, cyprus/sardinia etc and went out for meals all the time, my sister and i sat and behaved, we coudl do some colouring maybe, but generally we sat and chatted, as did the other children in the restaraunts and there were LOADS of them, esp in cyprus, the waiters would often stop to say hello and chat to us etc. in sardinia i was a novelty as a toddler with my big blue eyes and blonde hair and people used to offer to buy me! i just think if you get children used to sitting at the table from a young age and just joining in and chatting then they will see it as normal.

4madboys - but are they expected to sit at the table for 30/40/50 minutes before the food arrives, like you do in a restaurant?

I agree 4madboys. I remember DH's father always going to get newborn DD1 and bring her up to the table, and trying to eat with one hand while he held her. I used to tell him he could put her in the pram but he feels strongly that they should be part of family meals from the start, and I see what he meant now.

Op next time just bring a couple of books for them to read. I love seeing children sat down reading a book.

i have never waited 50mins for food in a restaraunt and woudlnt be happy to do so!

we pick a time that is good for the children, they enjoy looking at the menu and choosing their food etc and YES they will sit at the table for the half an hour before food arrives, they will talk, maybe do some drawing, or look at the dessert menu and choose what they would like to have for afters! if a child is younger (i mean toddler age) then if needed i will take them OUTSIDE to have a little wander, they certainly wont be wondering around in the restaraunt. we take small toys to entertain little ones that need it, but my elder ones ie 7, 9 and 12 will sit at the table and chat. (maybe i just have very talkative children!)

but then we dont have incar gadgets etc either, what happened to looking out the window, playing eye spy etc? we went to wales, 8 hr journey and they survived in the car without a ds or any electronic gadget, the talk, play simple games like eye spy, we stop for a snack and a good stretch of legs, probably twice on that journey. but they had fun reading road signs, following where we were going in the map book etc. if they can sit in the car for two hours (as they do regularly to visit their grandma) then YES they can sit at the table whilst they wait for their food to arrive as that is what you have to do in a restaraunt.