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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

913 replies

foglike · 18/01/2012 11:30

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

OP posts:
tilder · 18/01/2012 12:26

Interesting thread. Am pro-choice but can understand why someone who is pro-life would not wish to have direct involvement with abortion. I can't see how it would benefit anyone for that to happen. This isn't about that though is it - its about care for a patient who has received a given treatment. They may not agree with the treatment, but it is part of their job to undertake/manage the before and after care.

I think that it is the thin end of the wedge if someones religions/ethical views are allowed to affect how they medically respond to and treat someone. In my view the earlier post:

'You can't compare it to liver transplants for alcoholics or treatment for drug addiction. Neither of those things involve ending a life'.

Is not correct - if you refuse a liver transplant, you may well end their life as this is a life saving treatment. Ditto treatment for drug addiction and numerous other things - alcoholism, obesity, smoking etc in some cases (OK, may not be instant death, but these can be contributors/causes of death).

Its not nice being on the receiving end of someones ethics - I experienced a very minor form of this when requesting the morning after pill some years ago from an out of hours Dr - he wouldn't prescribe it to me because 'why are you having sex if you don't want to get pregnant'. I was young (20) and distressed at the time and he didn't help - made it very difficult to get the pill in the required timeframe.

Original poster
foglike · 18/01/2012 12:27

megcleary the fact they are both midwifery sisters suggests that they have been on the job a significant number of years though.

I'm a cynic too but these two want a payoff or have been hiding their true feelings of disdain for patients for years.

OP posts:
trafficwarden · 18/01/2012 12:28

Thank you Megcleary for posting that. It is quite clearly stated what the professional obligations are. As someone wrote earlier, if you are a midwife and can't separate your own beliefs from the care you provide then you are in the wrong job.

Birdsgottafly · 18/01/2012 12:29

Given the nature of the task they shouldn't have the right to choose. All social care jobs should be staffed with non judgemental staff who are non discriminatory in their practice. If you are committed to a certain way of life or belief then pick your job carefully, the delivery of social care should not and cannot be catered to suit individual beliefs.

megcleary · 18/01/2012 12:30

But on the flipside they may have been working for years caring for people and the management may be exploiting their beliefs.

Original poster
foglike · 18/01/2012 12:31

Their beliefs are not important in the area of midwifery and they shouldn't interfere with their duties.

As stated in the link you provided.

OP posts:
Original poster
foglike · 18/01/2012 12:32

Even if the management were being awkward i take your note it's possible.

OP posts:
OhdearNigel · 18/01/2012 12:32

I would not expect a doctor to be forced to carry out euthanasia should this be made legal if they felt they did not want to do it.

Ending a life is completely different to any other duty. You cannot equate it with anything else. For many people abortion is murder. I have had 2 abortions myself and am rabidly pro choice. This includes the choice not to be involved in abortion if you do not want to be.

hairytaleofnewyork · 18/01/2012 12:32

YABU. Im pro choice.

Midwives trin to care for pregnancies and to help women give birth.

Gynae nurses are more appropriate for assisting in terminations and the aftercare thereof.

Highlander · 18/01/2012 12:37

YANBU.

They have a right not to be present during surgical TOPs. But it is their duty/job
to nurse women before and after a terminTion.

wannaBe · 18/01/2012 12:38

also, since when does conscience equal religion?

If I'm reading correctly, it seems that if your religious beliefs state that certain things i.e. abortion/contraception are morally wrong, then you are allowed to opt out. But what if you're not religious? What if you just believe these things are wrong, presumably then you have no choice in the matter? (and rightly so).

But this implies that only the religious have a right to a conscience... Hmm

PeanutButterCupCake · 18/01/2012 12:39

It is also gynae that deal with abortion in my trust.
I think they were being unreasonable to not delegate others to care for them.
I am pro choice and a lapsed catholic....I don't think they are unreasonable to not want to be directly involved with terminations.
I think the comparissons being made to blood transfusions, alcoholics etc are wrong. I can't think of other procedures that nurses would need to be involved in that ends a life that has potential IYSWIM? As a student I wasn't involved in terminations Through my choice but I also didn't get a Job in an area that would require involvement once I qualified.

lunar1 · 18/01/2012 12:40

When I trained it was made clear that the only thing a nurse or midwife was allowed to refuse was to take part in abortion, but must still carry out care before and after. this is irrespective of religious beliefs.

As a professional I would care for anyone without discrimination, but as a patient I refused on 2 separate occasions to be nursed with women having terminations when I was hosiptalised due to miscarriages.

MmeLindor. · 18/01/2012 12:40

It is to be noted that they were not asked to be present during the abortions, nor were they asked to provide pre- and post-operative care.

Ms Doogan and Mrs Wood sought during a grievance procedure to have confirmation that they were not required to delegate, supervise or support staff in the participation and care of patients through "the processes of medical termination of pregnancy and feticide".

They were asked to delegate staff. As this is part of their job, then they have no grounds to refuse to do this.

Or they must move to a hospital where no abortions are carried out.

ClothesOfSand · 18/01/2012 12:42

I don't understand that HTONY. Surely women having late abortions have been pregnant for some time, have been under the care of a midwife for some time, and will then go through something similar to birth to remove the foetus, and have similar medical needs to a woman who has given birth.

But I don't know what parts gynae nurses play in this. If a woman has a late miscarriage or a still birth, do women get transferred from midwives to gynae nurses?

And surely, even if you did get transferred from one group of staff to another, part way through you care, the midwife sister would still have to organise that transfer, and delegate the staff, so her objection to being involved in this would still stand?

I think it is ridiculous. If people can object to delegating staff when an abortion is going to happen, then people could also object to delivering the post from hospitals if the letter was about abortion, or cleaning hospital windows in rooms where abortions may be carried out, or washing hospital bed sheets in case they came from the abortion area. Objecting to carrying out abortion is different to objecting to managing the staff who do.

trafficwarden · 18/01/2012 12:43

Kellamity I'm a bit concerned that you think the RCN was your governing body rather than the UKCC prior to it's reincarnation as the NMC!
hairytaleofnewyork Midwives have to be involved in later terminations when the woman goes through labour/birth. Nurses are not trained to provide that level of care (although obviously, as in this situation, some midwives are in the wrong place too)

mousyMouse · 18/01/2012 12:46

yanbu it is their job.

'I cannot do filing as it is against my beliefs' maybe I should tell my boss this...

GeekCool · 18/01/2012 12:46

*also, since when does conscience equal religion?

If I'm reading correctly, it seems that if your religious beliefs state that certain things i.e. abortion/contraception are morally wrong, then you are allowed to opt out. But what if you're not religious? What if you just believe these things are wrong, presumably then you have no choice in the matter? (and rightly so).

But this implies that only the religious have a right to a conscience...*

This completely.

hairytaleofnewyork · 18/01/2012 12:47

An abortion is not the same as a still birth or a miscarriage though. I am pro choice but I find the comparison quite offensive (having suffered miscarriages).

There was nothing deliberate about my miscarriages.

If a medical professional objects to being involved in abortion then that's their right IMHO.

GeekCool · 18/01/2012 12:47

ugh bold fail.

Kellamity · 18/01/2012 12:48

D'oh trafficwarden you are absolutely right Blush, can you tell I've been out of nursing for a while!

kelly2000 · 18/01/2012 12:48

peanut,
Yes but for those who disagree with blood transfusions they are concerned with souls not just lives. Murder is illegal, abortion is not as it is not murder. So if you cannot ask someone to take part in termination care, you cannot ask them to take part in a blood transfusion if that is against their beliefs. And terminations can save lives so do you agree that if a womans life is in danger medical professionals should be forced to take part?
lunar,
how did you know they were having terminations, it would be illegal for other staff to tell you what they were in there for?

bemybebe · 18/01/2012 12:49

"I would not expect a doctor to be forced to carry out euthanasia should this be made legal if they felt they did not want to do it. "

In the countries where euthanasia is legal, the only doctors who are allowed to carry it out are the specially trained ones. Not relevant here.

kelly2000 · 18/01/2012 12:52

hairy,
So if a woman is told the fetus woudl die before birth, or she will die by being pregnant she shoudl be treated differently to someone who had a miscarriage? What about women who put themselves at risk of miscarriage shoudl they be discriminated against. It is really offensive just to assume that those who have terminations are somehow feckless, and sympathy shoudl only be given to those who miscarry.

ClothesOfSand · 18/01/2012 12:52

HTONY, an abortion does have medical similarities to a miscarriage in terms of the care a woman would need.

You were the person who said that nurses were more suited to providing this care than midwives. This isn't a question of ethics; it is a question of who has the right experience and training.

That isn't about making any individual midwife carry out an abortion, but saying that midwives as a group are more equipped as a group than gynae nurses to deal with late abortions.

It doesn't resolve the ethical issue anyway if you move it over to gynae nurses; some of them will be opposed to abortion too.