To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

I agree with squeaky. Vegans don't become dairy farmers; people who object to abortion shouldn't join a profession that encompasses all aspects of female fertility.

Just to clarify (though not completely relevant to the particulars of this case) a mw is required to adminstered drugs which induce fetal loss.

Yanbu.

I don't see being Catholic as an acceptable excuse for not providing aftercare for people who have had abortions. I think that she should have picked a different nursing speciality.

If being Catholic is a legitimate excuse then should people who are sexist, racist, homophobic... be excused from looking after people? Isn't it part of the hippocratic oath/NHS ethos to take care of everyone who needs help?

Surely as a midwife, Catholic or not, whether you agree with abortion or not, you would have some compassion for the woman, and want to provide care for her? If not, then you are not suited to the job imo.

"We were specifically spoken to about this as student nurses. I remember a small group of us were taken to one side and explained that as Catholics we did not have to be involved in the pre and post op care."

You were taken to one side and told? It wasn't laid out in your contract or terms of employment? That's weird and open to interpretation, IMO.

It's like going backward really isn't it?

Religious bigotry and control denied women safe terminations and the rights for women were fought for and won in the face of all opposition.

But now there are other women judging women from a religious viewpoint.

Where's the sense in allowing that?

This hasn't just surfaced as an issue - it has been an issue for many years and that is why so many NHS terminations are contracted out to the charity sector.

Since abortion was legalised, healthcare staff have been allowed to opt out on the grounds of religious conscience. But where you draw the line is a really important issue. Most people agree that staff shouldn't be forced to directly participate in abortions if they think it is murder (though I'm a bit at the amount of people who train as gynaecologists and then refuse to participate - it seems to me that termination has been part of mainstream gynaecology for a long time now). But people have to get indirectly involved, otherwise you'd have ward cleaners refusing to change sheets for termination patients, or clerks refusing to check them in, or housekeeping staff refusing to serve them meals...

I think it is perfectly ok for a midwife to fell she or he doesn't want to be involved, even in delegating pre and after care to someone else. But if they decide they feel that way, they should not seek employment with anywhere that provides abortion, and the NHS provides abortion.

This is reminding me of people's accounts of what it was like before abortion was legalized, when apparently it was not uncommon for some medics to punish women who'd had backstreets abortions then sought medical attention. One of the reasons for legalizing abortion was so that women would be less likeely to die because they didn't get the care they needed.

I am pro-choice, and I could never get involved with performing abortions, and I think I would hate to work where they were being performed, and I can certainly understand a midwife whose job is so centred around bringing babies into the world, might feel that way. But if so, she or he needs to choose to work elsewhere or do something else.

Yes and yes - we were spoken about it and it was in our terms of employment.

This is a really interesting thread and I am totally torn in my view on this.

I used to work for a company that provided advice to private companies. My colleagues and I had the total choice not to work on projects with certain types of companies. For example, one of my colleagues did not want to work with tobacco companies due to her personal view of them and this was totally acceptable. So the company provided the service, but individuals could choose not to support or work on elements of that service. I thought it was a great policy.

I know not religious grounds (although that would have been accepted too), and not nearly as emotive, but sort of feel that this is similar. Despite this, feel that I am leaning towards Bupcakes view.

YANBU. Part of a NHS midwife's duties is to care for those undergoing terminations. I agree with the basic principle that if you cannot do your job due to religious beliefs you have no business being there. Let someone who can actually do the job have it. Religion has no place at work.

YANBU.
I live in Italy, where we have a good legislation about abortion.
But the majority of doctors and nurses who work for state hospitals declare themselves conscientious objectors and don't perform abortions.
Therefore we have bizarre (and also disgusting) situation where women in need of an abortion find it very difficult to have one (despite the good legislation) and are often treated badly by doctors and nurses for their choice.
Awful.

"Yes and yes - we were spoken about it and it was in our terms of employment."

Where do you live, Kellamity? Or rather, where were you trained?

I think opting out of actually carrying out an abortion is fine (I am pro-choice). But that is not the issue here.

But in what part of Christianity does it say you shall refuse those that require your help (even if they are "sinners"). I rather thought the New Testament was promoting more help and less judging.

My colleagues and I had the total choice not to work on projects with certain types of companies. For example, one of my colleagues did not want to work with tobacco companies due to her personal view of them and this was totally acceptable. So the company provided the service, but individuals could choose not to support or work on elements of that service. I thought it was a great policy.

If it's practical, that's great. I don't know how such a policy would work within the NHS.

I live in the south west and I trained 20 years ago.

Sorry - I trained in the south west

YANBU.
You cannot choose to take a job that has elements you disagree with and then refuse to do them because of your religion or personal beliefs. It is like being a vegetarian, applying to work as a waiter and then refusing to serve meat as it is against your beliefs. If it is against your beliefs get another job.

Should nurses be able to refuse to give blood transfusion as they are jehovahs witnesses and it is against their beliefs - would you think it was right for a JW to apply to work in A&E and then refuse people blood transfusions and sue for compensation if she is made to give them?

Is it Ok for doctors and nurses to refuse to treat gay people for sexual related health issues (and I know catholic medical students and doctors that have told me they have no intention of treating homosexuals - no idea how they manage to get away with that as it is currently illegal, but there you go).

This is the thin end of the wedge, and the longer the UK is allowed to refuse treatment for people on the basis of their religious or personal beliefs the more and more people will be discriminated against - women are the targets so far, but it could end up being homosexuals, people of different religions, interracial couples (imagine if an IVF doctor was allowed to refuse to help an interacial couple have children as interacial marriages were against her beliefs), and anyone who does not share the same beliefs, such as car crash victims needing a blood transfusion. There are a lot of religions in the world (and a judge recently said personal beliefs could be equated to religion), it is not hard to find one that will fit in with your particular beliefs.

In denmark a doctor refused to refer a patient for a termination and told her to go to another doctor, she ended up on the national news being questioned about it, and caused outrage, Britain needs to buck up her ideas and treat medical staff picking and choosing who they treat in the same way.

Not sure, if this is only a small part of her job then surely they can just not rota her on it. If I was having a termination I would not expect to encounter staff who are anti abortion.

That's bizarre So you were trained by the NHS? And with a bunch of other catholic midwives? I am shocked. I really didn't realise that you were allowed to deny care, or encouraged to deny care, due to your religion if you are employed by the NHS.

How do you feel about pharmacies that refuse to supply the morning after pill on the basis that 'it's against their beliefs'? Or the B&B owners that won't allow gay couples? If these midwives are in the NHS there is absolutely no excuse for accepting a personal belief as a reason not to do a part of your job.

If you object then find another career please - I wonder how long I'd last in my job if I picked one part and said I 'don't believe in it'?

Excellent post Kelly2000.

No I'm not a midwife I am a nurse. I was trained by the NHS. There were about 3 of us that were catholic. IME it was the gynae wards that cared for patients undergoing a termination not midwives but I guess that varies from hospital to hospital.

If you choose to take any job, then you should do the whole job. If you are not prepared to do that, then you have no business being there.

I extend that to pharmacists who won't hand out morning after pills as well. Whilst I support someone's view to hold whatever wishes they choose, that doesn't extend to imposing them on other people.

People should do their jobs properly or piss off and work elsewhere.

lambzig,
You worked for a private company and your clients were free not to use your comapny. We do not have a choice about paying for the NHS. So we are beign forced to pay the wages of people who refuse to treat us. I notice those against abortion etc, have no problem with accepting wages from those who want abortions etc. perhaps the amoutn they get paid and the amount of free tution they receive shoudl be based on the percentage of people they intend to treat. For instance a doctor who refuses to treat homosexuals is refusing to treat ten percent of the population and should have to pay extra fees, and receive less money as a result.