To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

Someone's right. Sorry

I understand that you could opt out of actually being in the theatre performing duties when a termination was taking place but I didn't think that you could opt out of pre and after care of patients. Or else why would this have made the news?

I think it is entirely wrong that any member of the NHS should be allowed to determine what care they will or won't provide based on religious belief. They are employed to provide care not provide judgment.

I am very pro-choice. I had a late medical termination for fetal abnormality 18 months ago and during that process the midwife who was providing the majority of my care (seemed to me) to be trying to make it very clear that she was judging my choice (and that of my DH) very negatively indeed. Nothing explicit was said so I cannot make any complaint to the hospital although I have discussed it with them. However it made a truly horrendous experience the worst of my life. It is an absolute imperative that any midwife providing care does so with all judgment set aside. If they cannot I do not want them receiving a salary from the public purse.

Sorry for yet another post, but..
Its is an odd situation, that if a man rapes a woman and gets her pregnant, and the pregnancy could result in harm to the woman medical professionals are allowed to refuse to treat the woman. But if the rapist needs treatment as a result of the victim trying to defend herself they are not allowed to refuse him treatment.

I fail to understand why these women can't work in the community or in ante natal care. I think that they are being unreasonable and should take a demotion and not supervise staff. No one asking them to care for women having late term abortions.

A midwife who is looking after a labouring woman who is having a late abortion may be deeply traumatised. Ethically she is not allowed to discuss the experience of seeing a dead baby. It must be horrific having a line manager who thinks you are a murderer. The midwife may need councelling herself and a sympathetic line manager. Imagine if the poor midwife find she is having dreams about a dead baby, becoming depressed and needs time off work.

These women are refusing to be line managers, and abortion has nothing to do with it.

No it's bigger than that Bupcakes right from your going to your GP for referral, he can refuse to do that on the same grounds. I am also surprised this had made the news as, as far as I am aware, it's been the case for years. Maybe it's the first time it's been challenged.

Another post,

But this law actually enocurages people with strict religious beliefs to join a profession simply to try to stamp out things liek abortion. We cna only train and employ so many medicla professionals, so the more those of fundementalist beliefs are encouraged to join, the fewer people who do not follow the religion's beliefs can be treated.

"Sorry for yet another post, but..
Its is an odd situation, that if a man rapes a woman and gets her pregnant, and the pregnancy could result in harm to the woman medical professionals are allowed to refuse to treat the woman. But if the rapist needs treatment as a result of the victim trying to defend herself they are not allowed to refuse him treatment"

^This.

I was trying to remember a case recently which prompted a thread on here about how could medics treat someone who'd just murdered, just remembered that it was when that Polish man in Jersey murdered his wife and little children. The staff at the hospital HAD to treat him, despite what he'd done. This is what medics are duty-bound to do. Morals can't come in to it as it creates too many grey areas about who is deserving/undeserving of treatment. Everyone gets treated the same then there should be no problems.

'We were specifically spoken to about this as student nurses. I remember a small group of us were taken to one side and explained that as Catholics we did not have to be involved in the pre and post op care.'

I would be quite pissed off if I was taken aside and it was assumed that because of my religious beliefs, I was incapable of maintaining a professional and compassionate attitude towards all my patients

Of course YABU. I am pro-choice, have had a termination myself too but I don't think anyone should be forced to take part if they morally object.

I remember being completely taken back. I had no idea my religion would come into my nursing practise.

Sounds like you've got the right attitude, Kellamity

saturday,
So you think homosexuals asking for sexual health treatment should also be refused treatment if those who should be treating them think homosexuality is against their religion, and thta by giving advice they are encouraging it?

I morally object to paying for those who discriminate against women, homosexuals on their basis of their religion, so should I be forced to pay for tax?

I am horrified that student midwives are told that they can be made exempt from looking after women who have had abortions. That is shocking and unforgivable. That is the scandal that the Wright Stuff should be discussing.

If I have had an abortion then have a baby does that mean I get worse care than someone who has had a baby and never had an abortion? By worse care I mean if there are 10 mws and 2 are Catholic only 8 would help me?

Abortion is not nice for anyone. I'm surprised that non-Catholic mws have to pick up the slack from colleagues not doing abortion care and are not paid extra for the extra responsibility.

Doesn't Christianity say that you shouldn't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes?

www.nmc-uk.org/Nurses-and-midwives/Advice-by-topic/A/Advice/Conscientious-objection/

Nurses guidence

But they are not being expected to take part in the actual abortion - they are being expected to provide pre and post abortion care. It's part and parcel of their job and to refuse to do it means they are refusing to do the very thing they are paid to do. I would sack them.

As said up thread, they take their wages from the whole country, including taxpayers who've had terminations. If they are not happy, they can bugger off to the private sector. To tolerate this is the thin end of the wedge and will result in all sorts of people imposing their beliefs on others, while being paid by the state to provide a national health service. National doesn't mean, everyone, apart from women who've had abortions.

'We were specifically spoken to about this as student nurses. I remember a small group of us were taken to one side and explained that as Catholics we did not have to be involved in the pre and post op care.'

I imagine that muslim or hari Kristna or jewish or possibly the odd humanist might have exactly the same objections. In fact many people with no religion feel abortion is morally wrong.

Anywhere I have ever worked the situation was that midwives could opt out of being in theatre when a surgical procedure was conducted but were still expected to provide pre and post op care. I have never encountered anyone refusing to do this - a measure of compassion and empathy is essential in our job. When a woman has a termination in the second trimester and will actually go through labour/birth where administration of drugs was part of the process, then again opting out of primary care was allowed. Common sense I would have thought to allocate a sympathetic midwife. The person doing the allocating does not have to be directly involved. I am assuming these women feel they may be condoning the situation but it's not as if they didn't/haven't known this was part of their role in the NHS.

This is a form of religious extremism and it should be labelled as such.

I thought we had come a long way in society but with people like these two spouting ultra religious views against other people i'm gobsmacked.

They should be sacked or if they can't they should be moved somewhere where their vile views can't do any harm.

This is from the Moral objection link posted upthread:

"Refusing to be involved in the care of patients because of their condition or behaviour is unacceptable. The NMC expects all nurses and midwives to be non-judgmental when providing care."

Think that should cover it, really.

Thanks for the link megcleary.

they enter into a job where termination is a factor.

If they are not comfortable with that notion (and anyone has the right to not agree with termination) then they shouldn't have become midwives. It is that simple.

I have read the bbc article an I think what has happened is it was all probably working ok until they come near retirement age, then move them from labour ward to somewhere that goes against what they believe in causes trouble and threatens their pensions etc.

But I am a cynic.

Absolutely Bupcakes but when I trained it wasn't even the NMC it was the RCN and as the current policy was reviewed in 2008 it makes you wonder how ambiguous the policy my hospital interpreted back in 1991 was.