To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

I think this lady should have applied for a job on postnatal where this wouldn't be an issue for her.

hairytaleofnewyork I don't know if there was an element of choice when my friend terminated at 23 weeks for anencephaly that wasn't detected til the 20 week scan.

Interesting about Jehovah's Witness staff. Never thought about their objecting to involvement in blood transfusion but it's never come up in my experience.

Blood transfusions are totally different as the person receiving the transfusion can agree to this and only affects them. The nurse may disagree but is saving a life.
Termination as viewed by RC involves two lives and the ending of one.

As I said before I can't think of another procedure that nurses would have to be involved in that ends a life with potential.

Again I am pro choice women should be able to decide.

Oh dear I told myself I would not read this thread but ...

hairytaleofnewyork

I am sorry that you have experienced mc but your views are offensive. I am pro-choice, always have been, always will be. I had a termination and I stand behind and beside every other woman who was, in whatever circumstances. We all deserve appropriate care for the most trained professional (in this case - a midwife).

I have had two mcs and last year I had a heartbreaking termination at 12 weeks because my baby had anecephaly.

In one sense you are right .. the experiences of mc and termination are incomparable. The termination (for me) was much more horrific physically and emotionally.

I accept that I will always have to deal with the ignorant and judgemental because I had a termination but have someone insinuate that they are better than me because I deliberately terminated my pregnancy rather than miscarried makes me want to scream/cry/vomit (in no particularly order). Well done. You're a treasure. Enjoy your afternoon whilst I sit here shaking in horror.

FWIW the importance of after care following the termination was much more important for me than after the mcs. I had one nurse who before the operation was wonderful. However, the aftercare was horrific and compounded the trauma I experienced.

Surely we are missing the point here. If you were in the awful position of having to terminate a much wanted pregnancy you'd want someone who was able to care for you without any moral issues about that.
I was a midwife, I am Catholic, I am generally pro-life BUT I would never judge anyone else's decision. As such, as a midwife I could and would care for someone going through a termination but just wouldn't want to start the process off. In fact I have willingly cared for women in this situation and tried to make a difference to them during a traumatic time.
Another person may feel differently and perhaps would not find it as simple - I feel MY care and support would be superior to someone who felt less happy with the issue.
You cannot compare blood transfusions or any other medical procedure with this - ou just can't, it all comes down to sanctity of life and some people will NEVER feel comfortable with this - generally they will work elsewhere and not choose specialisms where this is an issue - unfortunately most need to pass through the Ob/Gynae route on their way elsewhere..

YABU.

It has and always will be a "get out clause" that health professional do not have to carry out terminations if they hold religious beliefs otherwise but they must not stop a woman seeking this help- they must refer to a college.

In my locality because of a very strong quaker history terminations are carried out in private clinics under NHs funding arrangements rather than in NHs hospitals. It's a really interesting set up.

It isn't and never has been "the slippery slope". It has always been in place, and yes, for instance GPs holding strong roman catholic beliefs may well not give contraceptive advice either. THat just means that their partner does, or the local family planning clinic does etc, patients who aren't happy with this choose another GP. It isn't a "hidden " thing.

It also isn't really very different from "Dr Smith looks after the diabetics in the practice as he has a specialist interest" is it?? (dr Brown will know the basics but internall refer you to Dr Smith if needed)

Living in the Middle East I have had one doctor refuse to advise me on contraceptives, as in her view as a married woman it was my obligation to get pregnant. I have had others tell me I must treat my endometriosis by getting pregnant, and another that purposely gave me a medication which would disrupt my pill so that I would get pregnant (luckily I look up all meds on the net before taking them). So no, I don't think that religion or culture or whatever has any place in medicine, and the presence of it can be highly inconvenient to some patients as well as in my case potentially life changing in a (for me) negative way. Medicine should be like law - secular.

McGee you've misinterpreted where I am coming from.

I am PRO CHOICE and was absolutely not insinuating that I am better than anyone (you actually have no idea if I've ever had an abortion or not)

I have had two medically managed and two surgical procedures for missed miscarriages.

Whatever a persons reasons are for terminating, the act of performing termination Of a viable pregnancy is not the same as removing an already dead fetus.

The situation you describe in your case is pretty unusual. I did not mean to generalise.

Someone up thread was talking about still birth etc - I don't understand why people bring that into the abortion "argument" as it has nothing to do with it.

But I also believe that If a person objects to abortion they have the right not to take part.

Incidentally I'm now 40 weeks pregnant today and wish to god I hadn't read your poisonous post. :(

Incidentally, my experience of aftercare was traumatic too. I suspect it would have been even more traumatic had I had any inkling that the people doing the aftercare were reluctant to be giving it. Compounding my belief that people who objec should not be forced to take part.

Midwives have no place in the care of those having early miscarriages or avodrtuons that's for sure, neither do "objectors".

I simply don't get why people bring miscarriage/still birth into the abortion argument - they are not the same thing.

"Whatever a persons reasons are for terminating, the act of performing termination Of a viable pregnancy is not the same as removing an already dead fetus."

How is it different, especially v early in the pregnancy?

I think the point being made by the poster was that the physical care involved during and after a late termination is very similar to that required by still birth, and so the best people to care for women in that situation are midwives. I don't know who cares for women who have early miscarriages (ie, if it's midwives or gynae nurses), but again the care required would be similar to that for those who have early termination, so it should be carried out by the same ward.

I can accept people being able to opt out of carrying out terminations, for any reason not just religious, but to refuse to carry out pre- and post-op care, and further still refuse to line manage those who carry out termination is unacceptable.

Totally agree with Bupcakes (first page) and others in the same vein.

Nurses cannot pick and choose who they care for based on their moral objections to particular scenarios. If that is allowed, there are endless permutations that could be objected to and nursing care would be impossible.
It is a horrible thought that vulnerable women might unknowingly be subjected to this judgemental pair.

Nurses sign up to care for patients, full stop.

Sorry - that should be midwives not nurses.

"Whatever a persons reasons are for terminating, the act of performing termination Of a viable pregnancy is not the same as removing an already dead fetus."

How is it different, especially v early in the pregnancy?"

It's different as it is ending a potential life (or at least some people
Believe that to e the case).

It can also be very different for the woman experiencing the procedure emotionally.

Again, I am pro choice, but I do get that others do see it that way.

I'd just like to say I apologise if my post up thread came out the wrong way - I was thinking of early abortions performed as a choice, not to have a baby - not those performed due to non-viability.

I still believe in each persons right to choose -
the same goes for medical professionals having the right not to take part in them or aftercare.

flick I think midwives can choose - they train specifically to care for pregnant women and to deliver babies.

Abortion and miscarriage and maternity services should all be kept separately - there is a big campaign at the moment.

It was horrible for me to be scanned to check my miscarriage was complete in the same scanning department as heavily pregnant women.

Incidently, i do wonder if the Government allowing anti abortion groups to come to the pregnancy advisory table

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/labour-challenge-anti-abortion-group

encourages these sort of cases????

hairy apologies if I upset you - its clearly an emotive subject and one that I am very very sensitive to. Ironically I am so sensitive to being judged because the nurse taking care of me after the termination brought up the issue of whether and where I would be judged.

I still can't get past the concept that if a healthcare professional is judging another person to the extent that they cannot peform their duties then they are probably in the wrong job.

HTONY, I don't know why you are bringing early abortion into it. This is a thread about the duties midwives have to perform, which would then be about women who had already received some midwife led antenatal care.

The medical needs of a woman who had a still birth are similar to the medical needs of a woman who has a late abortion, so it would make sense for them both to be cared for by midwives. I very much doubt anyone who had either a stillbirth or a late abortion would want to be on the same ward as a group of new mothers and their babies. That doesn't mean that a midwifery sister should be allowed to refuse to organise a staffing rota or to delegate the midwives she is responsible for to either group of women. I don't think the distress of somebody undergoing either a late abortion or a stillbirth is something to be trivialised.

Well Jesus didn't agree with prostitution and crime but he loved and cared for prostitutes, thieves etc.

They don't have to agree with abortion to carry out care and be kind and understanding to women who have got themselves into the situation where they require an abortion.

I would say that it is dereliction of their faith to judge others and turn their backs on them.

Also - having had a termination I don't differentiate between myself and the women who chose to terminate a viability pregnancy - morally or in the type of care we deserve. If you are pro-choice, you don't differentiate (IMHO).

My termination was co-ordinated by antenatal care and midwives (who tried to find me a seat away from pg women etc.) but the actual operation was treated as any other day surgery. One nurse with mw experience eventually found me a private room pre-op which was very lovely and understanding. Post-op was horrible and I was given no aftercare other than the discussion regarding judging me and asking if my husband knew what I'd done (when I asked her to call him to collect me). I can't help but think a mw would have been able to offer more informed aftercare (rather than - 'do you need a leaflet') and might have prevented the physical problems I incurred after.

Personally I think the woman who 'cared' for me post-op should be transferred elsewhere as she was clearly unable to do her professional duties given her big ol judgey pants wedgie.

I think the increase in abortion for 'abnormalities' in this country is worrying.
However this is an agenda and not just about their rights.
I am pro-choice and i think that the midwives have a right not to be involved the actual termination but they should be ok to do pre and post op duties.

YABU I had to assist during abortions during my nurse training in the early 90s and it's something I deeply regret and feel very bad about now. I didn't make moral judgements about the patients, but I hated assisting in theatre.

MsGee I agree in that I dont think you can say one type of abortion is ok and the other is night. I think late abortions are wrong.

However I have my own moral beliefs, and as I dont share others beliefs, they dont share mine and therefore I dont believe that abortion should be restricted. I still think I am pro-choice.

I do however think the time limit should be lowered

Apologies bad spelling and unfinished sentence there - meant to say
MsGee
I agree in that I dont think you can say one type of abortion is ok and the other is wrong. I think late abortions are wrong though but thats to do with the ability of a baby to survive at X weeks

It has and always will be a "get out clause" that health professional do not "have to carry out terminations if they hold religious beliefs otherwise but they must not stop a woman seeking this help- they must refer to a college"

They are NOT being asked to carry out terminations. They are required to carry out the same pre and after care as any patient having an operation. They are not being asked to perform theatre duties when the abortion is taking place.

I think everyone would agree that generally it is a good idea to keep termination care separate from women having miscarriages and stillbirths. I haven't come across a hospital where the policy was to keep everyone together. BUT you need to remember that early abortion (the vast majority) is a very different experience to late abortion, and particularly very late abortion. Early abortion is a minor surgical procedure that can easily be performed in gynae, day case or contracted out of the NHS. Late abortion is, essentially, childbirth and needs the care of midwives. That means providing care where the midwives are. usually women having late abortion will be in a single room, but there may be cases where this isn't possible.

Incidentally, I disagree with the gist of Theas18's post: very high numbers of doctors refuse to get involved with terminations, and it has been a problem for as long as I remember to find sufficient skilled and motivated staff to provide care in this area.