To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

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To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

I'm finding it hard to decide my opinion on this one. On one hand, I don't think midwives should be forced to support women who make a choice to end a life if that is very much against her beliefs, whether those beliefs be borne out of religion or not. There is always an element of choice involved in termination, even when that termination is being done for a reason that it would be unreasonable to argue against, and I can see why it would be hard to support a woman who had made a choice like that if you felt strongly against it. It wouldn't benefit the woman to have someone like that looking after her any way.

But on the other hand, if this is clearly something that is part of a midwives job, then she shoudo have decided if use could do it before she took the job on. You cant pick and choose the bits of a job you want to do.

Hmm, I shall read this with interest.

As sisters they wouldn't really be offering direct care - they would be supervising and managing the staff midwives. That is what they objected to - basically they refused to manage their staff. One sister was moved to assessment where abortion wasn't an issue, so that solved her problem, and the other went off sick.

The midwife doesn't have to be involved in any of the actual termination - just pre and aftercare.

I would understand the midwife not wanting to be present during any surgery or other procedure involved in the termination, but pre and certainly after care, there's no point in making a religious stand, it then becomes about looking after a patient, no matter what the procedure was.

Will these same midwives refuse care to surrogate mothers? Or mothers who've become pregnant through IVF because surely that contradicts catholic belief too?

They choose to go into a career where that may be part of their duties. It is like a pacifist joining the army. You can not pick and choose which bits of your job you will and will not do, you are employed to do it.

It's not just midwives/nurses that can refuse your GP is entitled to refuse to refer you too however he/she can't just refuse and leave you, he has to ask a colleague to step in.

You can't compare it to liver transplants for alcoholics or treatment for drug addiction. Neither of those things involve ending a life.

YANBU

I was wondering why this has only just surfaced as a problem surely they have been involved long enough in the NHS system for this to have been noticed before?

Have they just recollected that it's against their faith conveniently?

YABU. Saying people don't have the right to act according to their conscience risks deterring people from entering the profession.

I think it's important that safe abortions are available to those who feel they require them because the alternative is worse. But it is still the ending of a life/potential life and nobody should be forced to engage with that.

I agree with Bupcakes - Catholics are against contraception, so would it be ok for these sisters to sit a woman down and tell her not to take the pill? Or to refuse to allow her staff to hand out leaflets on the coil? It's not up to individual midwives to decide the moral agenda of the NHS - they entered the job knowing what it involved.

OP, I think that you need to ask to edit the title of this thread as it IS a bit misleading. The midwives aren't being expected to carry out termination duties but to offer pre and post care. People are too lazy to read the link and are getting all worked up by dint of the title...

Also, religion should never override the law of the country. Anyone is entitled to their beliefs, but as far as their job goes, unless it is specifically within the realms of their religion, then if they are unable to carry out their duties, they should not be doing that job.

My understanding is that they are not asked to take part in any part of the abortion whatsoever, except the after care.

This has been an interesting thread to read - I wasn't sure what my opinion was however I think I side with Bupcakes here.

Whilst I recognise that as a Catholic, the midwife would have moral objections to a termination and the duties a midwife may have to perform around them however I think that given this is a known potential duty when she chooses to become a midwife, if she is not prepared to do ALL tasks associated with the job she should not put herself forward.

It would set an extremely bad precedent if we could all opt out of certain parts of our job on "moral grounds". If we were suddenly asked to do something that was new and not envisaged at the start of the role then fair enough, but that is not the case here.

As Bupcakes says, if the midwife was allowed to opt out, this would create a horrendous legal precedent.

Bupcakes, it's one step further than that again - they didn't have to offer pre and post-op care, they just had to delegate and supervise staff who offered the care, as they were sisters rather than staff midwives.

Bupcakes.

They are refusing termination help though although I take your point.

I don't think you should be able to opt out of anything because of religious beliefs.

"You can't compare it to liver transplants for alcoholics or treatment for drug addiction. Neither of those things involve ending a life."

Obviously, but the point I am making is that if the NHS is run by individual's personal moral code rather than code of care, we will run into all sorts of problems.

If abortion suddenly became legal in Ireland and midwives objected there, I think that would be totally reasonable as they would suddenly have to carry out a duty that they didn't sign up to when they trained. But abortion has been legal for a long time in the UK, this is not a new thing to these sisters. Why are they objecting now?

I don't think that midwives should be able to opt out of giving care to women who are having abortions, in fact I think that one of the most important parts of midwifery and nursing in general is providing the same level of care to every patient, whether or not you happen to agree with what they are doing and the way they live their lives. As a professional, you should be able to put your prejudices and personal beliefs aside. However, if I was having a termination, I would not like to be treated by a midwife who was making a moral judgement on me and was being forced to be there, as that would make the whole experience worse than it already was.

We were specifically spoken to about this as student nurses. I remember a small group of us were taken to one side and explained that as Catholics we did not have to be involved in the pre and post op care.

I am with Bupcakes

Sorry, but if they do not like to perform part of their duties they have to leave.
We live in a society that is governed by laws and those laws declare that women have access to abortions.

We already had Catholic registrars refusing to perform civil partnership ceremonies on moral grounds. Is this also reasonable??