To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

Rational, I don't think Carmel has said anything about judging women for their reasons to abort. I think you should stop trying to put words into people's mouths.

Rational, you are talking a load of shite.

I didn't say i thought aborting for spina bifda was acceptable. It was just one condition that sprung to mind. How about anacephaly then, just to be a bit more random.

Look i am midwife and i usually look after healthy mothers and babies from all walks of life and criminal and criminal backgrounds. I do not judge. Sometimes women terminate at my hospital, for abnormality and i am very very involved with their care and administer drugs. Whether i agree that the abnormailty is severe enough or whether I would do it myself is irrelevant.

Now just because I dont work(or want to) at a place that offers social TOP's again does not make me a bad midwife. I dont particularly want to work on a cancer ward either, but it doesnt mean I wouldnt look after a woman who had cancer.

Hope this is crystal clear.

"Rational, I don't think Carmel has said anything about judging women for their reasons to abort. I think you should stop trying to put words into people's mouths."

From Carmen:
" The only difference would be is that I could opt out of administering the abortifacients."

"Occasionally, things go wrong in pregnancy and a woman who very much wants this baby is forced to make a difficult decision to terminate. The situations are horrific and It is my role to care for these women and support them. Though I am able to object to actually administering the drugs( i do in fact, give them).

I would not be happy being involved in a social TOP. That is not part of my role and I would object on moral grounds"

So, women who choose to abort due to an abnormal foetus are ok on her moral compass but not 'social' abortions.

Carmen,
yes you have said that it is fine if a woman is aborting a baby that will end up handicapped, but you think it is immoral to abort a baby that would not be handicapped. To be honest that is even worse than being against abortion full stop.

I am fully pro-choice, women should not be forced to continue a pregnancy against their will, and any health professional who tries to use their position to prevent women from this autonomy and force them to go through an unwanted pregnancy (even if that is just be denying or making temrination access difficult), is not a good healthcare professional as they are knowingly putting a patient at risk of mental and physical harm against their will.

No one answered a question I put forward several pages ago, funny how evasion tactics are so easily employed in this topic:

What do those against 'social' terminations believe should happen to the subsequent children? Should the mother be forced to keep the child to teach her a lesson to act more 'morally' in future? Should the child be given up to social care? Let's face it, there aren't enough potential adopters for the thousands of children already in the social care system.

I'd rather be born disabled than into a family where I'm not wanted or put into the care system. But that's just me, immoral and talking shite!

I don't think opting out of involvement in a procedure on moral grounds is calling someone immoral. Nor is saying that y wouldn't have a termination yourself judging someone who would.

Rational, I think your question probably got glossed over becaue it isn't actually relevant to this particular discussion. I'm sure there will be plenty of other abortion threads where you would get an answer.

"I don't think opting out of involvement in a procedure on moral grounds is calling someone immoral. Nor is saying that y wouldn't have a termination yourself judging someone who would. "

Really? I would have thought it a natural progression to make. A person doing an immoral act is immoral surely? Not nice but logical surely?

And my question is entirely relevant, if you don't think so don't answer. It is directly offered to those that have stared that abortion, particularly for 'social' reasons is morally wrong.

If you say you cannot do soemthign ebcause you think it is imoral, is saying that person is imoral. personally i think those that use their own opinions to deny treatment are the imoral ones.

Your question got glosssed over because it puts the anti-abortionists in a difficult position.

But who has called it an 'immoral act'? No one except you. All Carmen said was that she would opt out of it on moral grounds which is what anyone is currently allowed to do.

"Your question got glosssed over because it puts the anti-abortionists in a difficult position."

Not at all Kelly, it's been answered several times on other abortion threads. Eel free to read through some of them.

Do I speak a different language than you? Why are my posts often not directly answered? Only evaded or twisted to suit others agenda?

If IIRC, you would have to declare your conscientious objection to TOP's and the point of signing your contract of employment. There is not the provision to opt out of some cases because you perceive someones decision to terminate less 'worthy' than anothers. You either agree with termination or you don't. There shouldn't be a distinguishing line for the reasons.

I really don't think you are in the position to accuse people of twisting your posts rational...

Show me where I've done that.

Sorry CBA. RL calls. Bye ladies.

But You did try to do it to me a few pages back if you want to reread it again yourself. Bye!

I'm not the one saying I did, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. I really can't be arsed and since I have no idea what you're talking about it'll be pretty hard to find. It's not my style to twist people's words anyway, I deal in facts.

That's right, BadDay (I nearly just called you Orifice). If your conscientious objection is genuine, it will apply to all abortion. Otherwise it is about being squeamish and judgemental. I'm not disrespecting the powerful and difficult feelings that can be involved - I've already said that I did not like watching terminations AT ALL - but, you know, then you really are in the realm of not wanting to treat serial killers - or indeed, not wanting to help women carry a pregnancy to term when you know the baby will be badly treated.

carmen that's how our trust works too...early TOP to gynae or clinics and late TOP to midwifery services. It must be heart wrenching at times in your job at times.

So is that it clarified? Carmen did say that her unit only performed abortions where an abnormality was diagnosed in the foetus. In fact, although quite rare for it to occur which is why she has not been in the position, she may be called upon to assist in any late term abortion.

Thats correct Rational. Most late TOP's are for an abnormality but it is certainly not the only reason.

Haven't read all the 899 posts but basically I think the midwife should have the right to object to carrying out an abortion or being present at one, but not to object to non-invasive pre and after care for someone who is going to have one/has had one, like filling in a form or taking blood pressure.

BUT I think the situation had been caused by the hospital admitting women having a termination to the maternity ward instead of the gynae dept. Surely that should not happen? Women who are having a baby would not want to be in a ward next to someone having a termination and vice versa! I know this happened with my mum in 1975 - thought it didn't go on any more.

I'm struggling to find any data on the figures actually, there appears to have been a ruling last year allowing for the figures to be released. I certainly couldn't find actual statistics.

Late term abortions in general appear to be very rare.

so those refusing treatment on moral grounds are doing so becuse they feel the treatment is moral then?

rational,
only 2% of terminations occur after 20 weeks. It is only at 20 weeks that many problems can be disagnosed.

The figure I found was 1%. It's hard work wading through all the pro-life guff when you google abortion