In thinking that if you won't go out alone at night because you've got a vagina, you are actually a bit pathetic?

[solidgoldbrass]

Because, statistically, if you have a vagina, you are far more at risk of being murdered if you stay at home If your home has a man in it. Yet time and time again there's this 'Waa, waa, I need an armed escort or a male owner to protect me if I'm ever going to set a foot out of doors after dark. It's so unreasonable to expect me to use public transport or walk anywhere...'

Really, Id prefer them to stand, its better that way, everyone can see them for what they are. If you rereport and relay that to mumsnet.

DS2 wants his castle built, he is wonderful in his small child way, at sensing when something needs to happen and has just brought me sweeties.

I agree with MJ. Unless you or someone close to you has been a victim of those statistics, or you work directly with those victims, you really can't imagine just how much it impacts upon your life. How much you will do to avoid anyone you know becoming another statistic.

Unless you've experienced being pinned down and raped by a man you are physically incapable of fighting off, you cannot truly comment. Not knowing if he is going to kill you, and not being able to do a single thing about that.

experience that, then come back and tell me you still want to exercise your right to walk around in the dark wherever you please.

Keyboard warrior....interesting. What's one of them then?

youaredaft, can I just say this without irony, I agree with you on all points.

So is 'YOUARe' 'Spanish' popped up and waiting for another holiday?

I simply don't know how anyone can respond to that post reasonably MJ.
I've never been on a thread aobut your step children. I"m sorry you and your family are in a dark place and I hope whatever is going on in your life right now, I'm not going to engage with you anymore because I don't think we can have a reasonable discussion, but I wish you well.

I have been raped twice in my life actually SS, does that qualify me to have an opinion on the OP? Am I supposed to have some kind of specific POV because I'm a rape victim?

Sorry that should have said whatever is going on in your life is sorted.

I don't thin there is any need to call Sarah Hamilton

I have been attacked.

I find the 'if you haven't been raped you can't say anything' really disturbing

If there are risks of rape, they affect all women and so any woman is within her rights to thiink opine about it

having personal experience does not give you special insight into whether it is likely to happen to someone else, or what they ought to do to avoid it

in my own case it was a stranger, but that does not cancel out the fact that mostly, women are attacked by men they know, and maybe love

there is a lot of time and distance between what happened to me then and who i am now, and it took a long time before things that should feel safe, like walking down my road at 7pm in the dark, in my quiet neighbourhood actually did feel safe

maybe not safe, but not likely to give me a fucking coronary

i don't blame anyone who has been attacked or rape for anything they do to feel safe; no one would expect a plane crash survivor to keep getting on flights

i am angry that so many of us live in fear

i am worried that we silence dissenting opinions because they don't come from personal experience

Thing is, unless someone tells us, how the hell are you able to judge whether someone is a rape survivor or not? As open as I am about my experiences on here, I've never spoken about them IRL.

You can't dismiss someone's POV just because they haven't told you about their own experience, should it exist. Survivors have the right to discuss their experience when they feel fit, not when they feel bullied into it.

I think that may have been auto-correct, Hully, but you did make me chuckle there... (Much needed today, so thank you!)

Quite Frothy.

I would rather not have mentioned my experience of sexual violence because frankly, I don't think it's relevant here.

I accept that their experience of sexual violence is very relevant for some other women on this subject. Just not for me.

It is with some apprehension that I venture back on this thread as it's clearly been quite tense. I just wondered if it was at all helpful to try and summarise and expand on a some of the points that strike me.

Firstly - a point of agreement. This thread is FULL, 100% FULL of the assertion that violence against women - both in and out of the domestic setting is unacceptable. That might seem obvious but I think it's worth holding on to actually because it does represent a shift in thinking. When a woman posts on mumsnet that her partner forced her to have sex with him or has assaulted her, the message that comes back to her will be that is not acceptable, that she doesn't have to tolerate it, that she can be supported in acting. It's not very many years ago at all that that message would not have been as strongly and just about universally accepted.

Secondly - the decisions women make. We all make choices. We all have the right to make those choices free from undue or unfair influence. Where the point of disagreement seems to come is that I (and I think some other posters but I can't speak for them) would say that a decision not to walk alone at night that is based not on i) personal and terrible experience and/or ii) a specific threat known in that area (a riot for example), is likely therfore to be a decision based on cultural myths and fears. These are not borne out by historical statistics or experience and thus the behaviour of the woman concerned is being inappropriately controlled in my view my influences beyond her immediate person. Clearly distinct from this are the choices made that are based on personal experience. I think it's unfortunate that those making the latter type of choice have felt attacked by this thread. That should not be the case. If this thread does challenge the thinking of those making the choice for the first reason I outlined then I think that's a helpful thing however. Ultimately though I wouldn't want anyone to feel guilty for staying in anymore than someone who goes out should feel guilty for that. The problem in this debate is not the activities of women. The problem is violence against women.

Thirdly - I don't believe you have to have had personal experience of a situation to be entitled to comment. Nor should anybody on this board have to 'present their credentials' before doing so.

Fourthly - attacks on feminists. It has always been the case since the development of the first women's rights movements that it would rock some people's boats more than others. Feminist is used as a term of abuse and as a badge of pride. I think it's probably best just to get past that. I know some of my views would not always chime with other feminists and some of their views won't chime with mine. That's how it is. Surely though, what unites us all - whether you define as feminist or not - must be greater than what is used to divide us. I believe in sisterhood. It really upsets me to upset people (I know that sounds wet) but neither can I agree with views that I believe are harmful for women as a whole. On this thread what has really troubled me was the tenor set by the assertions that are partners are lovely and therefore outside is more dangerous for us. I just don't accept that. That's not to say I want to upset people or make them feel their personal relationship is being attacked.

Fifthy and finally (honest)

I started a thread in feminism at the end of last week aout a rape trial I had read about on-line. In that case the defendant was pleading as his defence that the sex was consensual. The victim had over 30 injuries and had called the police at the beginning of the assault. There was therefore a recording of the call which included her saying no and him asserting that he would rape her. In the face of that evidence it is staggering to me that the defendant could still bring himself to claim consent occurred. So whilst as I said in my first point (some days time ago) we have come a long way, we have not come far enough and we all have to do something about that. How we think now and how we therfore teach our children will change things.

women are always being told to trust men they know and accept that men Know Better and are needed to Protect Us - one has to wonder whose interests this very pervasive myth is serving.

Really,SGB? Noone has ever told me that in my life!!
I think it is human nature to trust people you know better. It has nothing to do with gender.
For instance,I trust my Uncle Roy more than the woman that served me at the corner shop yesterday! (Funny that, especially since we both have vaginas! Also,it was nearly ,gasp,dark!!)

So,if anyone is keeping old myths alive,it's people like you!
I think that you sound like you are a very bitter and angry person.

I am reading a book about Emiline Pankhurst at the moment. There is a word that is used a lot, and that is Sisterhood.
As a feminist,surely you should be all for that?
But you seem to dislike and distrust men and women in equal measure if your vitriolic posts are anything to go by

Disclaimer: It is not my Uncle Roy who has the vagina

Sarah quite possibly but regardless he/she came back with a slightly better thought out series of responses IMHO.

I read that NL and on a quick read with 2 small children hanging on me I agree.

I am going to add 2 points to the general tone of this thread.

I and numerous other posters do not like being called anti feminist or misogynist - it's insulting an offensive an over used on these boards.

I am sorry basil and others felt forced to share, equally I wanted to.

I am not an anything "ist" - I'm just me, like the majority of women on Mumsnet.

Then stop posting anti-feminist clap trap?

Easy.

I also think Basil is deserved a much bigger apology, lest the "equally I wanted to". You bullied Basil into sharing something that she didn't want to share, and that is unacceptable.

Forcing women to talk about experiences they don't want to is pretty damn misogynistic IMO

Sorry make that 3 points.

I do think it is worth remembering that those statistics are people too.

I am wondering after this if some survivors find it easier to think about this in the third person - so stats are depersonalised somehow.

MJ I don't think you owe anyone an apology. I think the only person who has forced / bullied people into feeling as though they needed to share traumatic experiences to justify their arguments is the person who started this thread.