To have taken most of my nearly 4 year old'sDD's Christmas presents away

[Pinkiemum]

And some of her other toys as she scribbled all over a mouse mat we had made to send to my father for his birthday. It had a photo of her and her baby brother on it and now I have had to order another and hope it arrives in time so I can send it to Australia for his birthday.

She was actually being punished at the time for being naughty and should not have been doing anything apart from sitting on the naughty chair in the study. (The reason we took the other toys is we don't think she will really notice the loss of her Christmas presents having only had them for one day)

Scarlett - the OP said her DD is nearly 4, which she is, she will turn 4 in 3 weeks time. I think your 'sick to the stomach' is a gross over exageration to the situation and to say that Pinkie doesn't have any feelings at all is just nasty.

Pinkie - I really do think that you need some sleep and a bit of a think about things. Taking a photo of you in the bathroom is very normal 4 yo behaviour which would warrant, at most, a 'DD, that's not a nice thing to do, please don't do it again '. Not a punishment. Certainly not 20 mins of screaming and time out.

Hopefully now Christmas is over things will settle down a bit anyway, but you do need to look at your expectations re her behaviour and whether things really are 'naughty' (scribbling on the mousemat) or just something silly (photo).

Herbie - Pinkie's DD was in the timeout for taking the photo of her Mum pulling up her trousers having been to the loo, that's when she drew on the mousemat and had all her toys taken off of her.

"I have also been told before that when a child is in time out you should ignore them, how could I do that if I stayed in the room with her while she was being punished."

You've never been in the same room with another person and been able to ignore them? You just have not react to whatever it is they're doing, blank them, however you manage to ignore the rest of the crowd in, eg, a pub or train or bus. It can be hell when it's your own kid wanting your attention, though.

My parent's naughty corner was in the kitchen, which made it hard for us to get up to anything, and they could get on with cooking while we memorised the pattern in the woodgrain on the cabinets contemplated our sins. Is there a boring corner in your usual nursing room that you could pick?

You might want to have a chat with your health visitor about appropriate punishments, and mention how your CM punishes children in her care at the next inspection-- IF it's as inappropriate as some here seem to think (I honestly don't know) then they'll sort things out and help all of you find a more successful way.

Your CM needs to re-think her strategy, it is wrong! I am an ex-childminder and Ofsted would take a very dim view of her actions.

Time out for inappropriate behaviour is of course acceptable and call it what you like that is what the "naught step etc" is (and Oftsed would also not want it called anything with the word naughty in it), but to further the punishment by not starting the countdown until the child has stopped crying is totally wrong, that is in fact punishing a child for crying which is NOT unacceptable behaviour.

Poor child, has all this going on at home and a childminder who punishes them for crying.

OP I have 6 years of studying child development, 12+ years experience and 2 degrees and I want to slap your childminder.

If your 3yo child is upset at time out then she is not gain anything other than a negative and damaging experience from the TO. If her behaviour warrants a TO then she needs to be calmed and settled and given the chance to give her side of things. IF she is upset when on TO there is a good reason for it (in her mind).

I am speaking as a person who has solely worked with some of the most disturbed and out of control teenagers in the country.

Your childminder is talking out of her arse!

Pinkie, yur littlegirl has comitted someminor misdemanors, while her whole ruteineis disrupted by christams and a new baby, etc

She has seen you exhauseted, crying, and totally over reacting to her, this is not going to help her feel more settled and secure, or behave better. It isn't normal for herto cherfully help yuo to confiscate her toys either.

Everyone over rects from time to time. can I suggest you just give her a hug, and say i'm sorry I got to angry, it was because the mat was very precious, then give her her toys back.

I hope yuu have a good nights sleep, and your DD is calmer tomorrow.

she is three for goodness sake. 3 minutes time out somewhere where she can't get up to no good.

oh and try baby wopes for the mouse mat. (they get most stuff off painted wall paper)

OP, I guarantee you in about 6 months time you will look back and cringe and what you have done. I say this from experience, new baby and dd/no sleep/trying to do everything/ etcetcetc, made me pretty revolting to dd for which I am now so ashamed. It will pass, just spend a bit more time with her. Nothing you have said is really naughty or dangerous to her or anyone else. Taking nudey photo's and doing a bit of scribbling is not trying to smother her baby brother or running around with a knife .

Go to the loft, get some of those toys down, do a swap with some that are out and give her a giant hug and chocolate for breakfast. And for the mousemat, try some fairy liquid.

i'll tell you something else as well... the level of behaviour you expect from child number one at three/four is vastly different from the level you'll expect from no.2. i think i expected too much from dd1 when dd2 was born (although not for long) but now i see that she was still a baby really. i just wanted her to be more mature because i had so much on my plate with a new child.

you did what

Its bloody hard work with a baby and a small child, but its not DDs fault you are tired and have a NB.

Poor thing.

My ds2 (4 Tomoz/almost today) is so having lots of changes including 9 week old sister. He is playing up especially with Xmas and birthday excitement too and he's poorly I also have ds1 and he's 11. I would never take all Xmas toys away for scribbling on a mouse mat. This has made me

Consequences for a three year od should be brief, immediate and linked to the bad behaviour. Taking her toys away won't teach her to behave as you want. Tbh putting her in time out in the first place for taking a photo is a bit extreme nevere mind the rest. I know it's hard but stop and think what are we trying to achieve here?

Your husband escalated the situation. I get it's embarrassing in front of others but I think a gentle conversation would have worked far better in that case and I am known as a disciplinarian. Take a deep breath and stand back. Unfortunately you now have made a huge disproportionate threat and I think you need to tell her you were wrong.

Be calm, be firm and reinforce your expectations as much as you can. Remember to reward positive behaviour with attention, just now you have given her loads of attention for being naughty and that's a negative reinforcement.

Mostly, don't beat yourself up, you are trying hard. The more tense you get the worse. It all seems.

Sorry typos, new keyboard.

Btw others are right, time out is about teaching children to control their emotional behaviour, if it descends into a screaming match its failed.

Poor kid. I'd change CM for a start! I do restorative time in not punitive time out, so not a fan of time out anyway. But... Starting the count AFTER crying stops? WHY would you want to teach a small child to repress their emotions that way?
As for being cross about the photo... Do you have hang ups you need to deal with? That is funny, not naughty! (unless it's a repeat offence)
in our house, I'd remind her why we call them 'private' parts, then suggest hunting some other stuff to snap.
Total over-reaction on mousemat, but at least then she'd done something wrong - the photo? Poor wee girl.

I don't think YABU for punishing her, at all. My DS at 2.1 knows full well not to scribble on anything other than paper. He also understands that he's not to touch pens etc unless it's craft time. He knew several months ago... so at 4, or nearly 4 of course she understood what she was doing.

It is also not an unreasonable request to ask her to sit alone for a few minutes without causing absolute mahem. Gosh, plenty on here leave their 4 yr olds while they pop next door or to the shop down the road, or allow them to get up in the mornings and make themselves breakfast while they stay in bed sleeping. And most don't see any problem with it. Come on, whats a few minutes alone in time out compared to that?!

However, I think YABU with the punishment given. It just seems quite sad, especially given the time of year. I'd have thought up some other punishment which was over more quickly so that you could have continued enjoying the happy atmosphere as soon as possible. Earning all those toys back could possibly take several days I'd imagine?

I am struggling to believe any parent is this cruel and stupid..... can't answer seriously as I don't believe a parent would do this to a child.

The punishment is supposed to fit the crime.
Hers did not.

You could have made her scrub the mouse pad, even if it doesn't come off, she is at least trying to right her wrong. Or use some money from her piggy bank to go towards another mousepad.

Y & your dh ABVVU.

Do not make the mistake of punishing in the heat of anger. I am pretty sure that is what happened. Next time she is naughty, I suggest that you send her to her room while you cool off.

OVER THE TOP REACTION!! Your punishment does not fit the crime!!

Says more about YOUR problem with anger.

Pinkie.. you have been at the receiving end of the nasty side of mumsnet. Fabbychic's response should be taken with a pinch of salt. In fact completely ignore it.

Yes, I do think an OTT response, however every mother on the planet has been guilty of an OTT response to naughty behaviour. Key is how you deal with it now. If you have concluded that it was unreasonable of you, scoop her up this morning in a big hug (chances are, she has actually completely forgotten about yesterday's events), explain that she's mummy's precious first born with a special place in her heart reserved only for first borns, say you were very sad about poor grandad's birthday present, but you know that she is sorry and you will draw a line underneath it and she can have the toys back. Then no more mention of the drama of yesterday, other than may be asking her to draw grandad a picture as an apology.

Good luck, things will ease up
x

She is only so young still and you expect too much of her. You needto understand that if she is naughty it is out of frustration and you need to be more gentle with her. More understanding, less anger.

Read this last night and was too and to reply. Your DD was doing things most 3/4yr olds do... Taking photos of mummy at inopportune times - hell, I endured my DD taking a video of me on her new leappad whilst I was on the toilet yesterday, DD and DH found it hilarious and said video is now safely deleted! And yes, some children know not to write on anything other than paper, but it doesn't stop them doing it and, at that age, they're not wilfully destroying something.

You say you have been making allowances for DD's behaviour for last month, but all I can see in your posts is 'justification' for your punishment - you're tired, you're stressed, she ruined a present for your dad and you're worried that the replacement won't arrive in time. I am sure a quick explanation to your dad would have resolved this and I honestly doubt he is going to be bothered if his gift is a few days late. And, your tiredness and stress is YOUR problem not DD's - My DD is 4 and DS is 7mth and (since mine and his numerous hospital admissions when he was 3-4mth... a whole other story) he doesn't sleep well at all. He woke every hour last night and was up for the day at 5:30am, but that is MY problem - he is also breastfed so all his night time demands fall on me.

The punishment you and your DH meted out was nasty and OTT and says more about your anger than anything else. But, today is a new day, please try to put this behind you and enjoy the day with your DD. I urge you and your DH to rethink your punishments and I would also consider positive encouragement rather than negative punishments and please remember that your DD has had her life turned completely upside down - her behaviour is a reflection of this. Give her lots of cuddles, encouragement and reassurance - let her know she hasn't been replaced and that she is still your baby...

Lastly, think about getting another childminder - I am still and at her advice regarding time-out!

I can totally understand that you are exhausted with the new baby and fed up with your dd's naughtiness. But leaving her to scream for 20 minutes on her own was very unkind, and that she did something bad was probably not that surprising as I expect she was very angry with you /your dh.

I personally don't think that time out is very effective, and for some children it really acts as an escalator. I used it with ds after reading Toddler Taming, and looking back I can really see how ineffective it was, and stressful for both ds and me, as his response was to scream and scream, and it was really only when he had worn himself right out that calm was restored. I am sure that there were probably much better ways to manage him (he is 12 now and i don't think permanently scared btw).

Bloody hell, there are some vicious posts on here.

FGS give the OP a break - have those of you posting condemning replies never made a wrong parenting decision when utterly shattered and under pressure? I know I have!

OP - my advise would be to ignore this thread now. Today is a new day so take a deep breath and try to focus on the good things your DD does - I know from experience that it is too easy to focus on the negative when they are displaying challenging behaviour. My DDs have just over a year gap between them so sibling rivalry has been rife since Day 1 and sometimes things have been so difficult I have felt utterly demoralised, at my wits end and an utter failure as a mum. Some of the posts on this tHread would have pushed me over the edge I think !

Next time post in child development or parenting - people are usually kinder there.

Good luck there will always be crap days but it will get better particularly when you start getting some proper sleep.

I have not read the whole thread got to page two but wanted to comment in case do not get the chance one read whole thread. I would think that yes as others have said her world has changed so she does not know which way is up. She will have known it was not the right thing to do, but at this age may not have been able to stop herself and thirdly I know that when I had my second child my first one suddenly looked enormous and it may be that your perception of what she is capable of has shifted a little, remember although she is bigger than your newborn, she is not not very old herself and still needs lots of guidance. Has she done this to get attention at all?