Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

about this woman r.e headscarfs?

231 replies

boatdeliah · 15/12/2011 21:32

Okay so this may be my 2nd AIBU in as many days but this happened today and really upset me. But I suddenly thought that maybe I was BU about what I did in response - that maybe I over-reacted.

I had to go into a meeting today for work with another company (a formal sort of meeting - in board room, suits, presentations etc). There was about 6 people in the room.

It was a long meeting and thoughout the first half (we had planned a tea break) the woman from the other company kept looking at me (she is new, I have never met her before and when we were introduced they said that she was a graduate on a training scheme and so had been invited into the meeting)

We break for tea and all stand around chatting as you do. I went to pour myself another drink and she approached me.

Anyway after all the hellos and all she looks around and then says slightly quieter - that she doesn't mean to offend me but me wearing a headscarf offends her and would I mind removing it.

Umm - No. I said that yes I would mind and that I found her request very odd.

We got on with the meeting and she was silent for the rest of it (and kept glancing at me)

When we got back to our office - I phoned up the person incharge of her in her dept (who couldn't be in meeting but whom I know very well). Then emailed that person - CC in their head of HR and the person in charge of graduate schemes in that company, Saying what had happened, what I had said, and what I thought of the request, inappropiateness of it. Basically making a complaint just not making it very formal.
On the phone her manager did ask if I wanted to make it a formal compalint - and I said I didn't want to make a snap decision and I would talk to her on monday, but thought I should raise it. (I do know this manager very very well and for a long time)

DH thinks I should just do whatever I feel is right on Monday.

But sitting hear tonight sans headscarf I've got thinking 'did I over do it?' - she's young and new and would have just an email to her manager been alright, and if this becomes something will i may have ruined something for her, she asked I said no - have I made a mountain out of a mole hill? this company could come down hard on this woman is taht fair because of something I have done?

(I wear a mitpachat/snood thing btw)

OP posts:
nothingbyhalves · 18/12/2011 22:47

Did she offend you? If she did then make a complaint. These days lots of people get ofended on others behalf...... don't let that influence you. But if YOU did find her what i think are silly, daft and ill thought out comments offensive then you go for it! Personally i thought the comments were rather stupid coming from someone who does not know the lay of the land as it were. Not someone i can see going far in a career working with people! don't spare too much thought on it, its not worth the worry . Just a silly person!

LadyPeter · 18/12/2011 22:54

YANBU as everyone (just about) has said. I used to wear a headscarf like the one worn by the OP because I was a bit of a scumbag hippy crusty new age traveller type person, nothing to do with religion- just a bit of an odd fashion from the nineties :)

vincettenoir · 18/12/2011 23:05

Ynbu. I think you have the right idea about waiting to see how you feel on Monday. Follow your instincts. if you feel that it has been taken seriously you might not want to pursue further. I'm sure that her Manager / HR are very unimpressed and won't forget about it in a hurry.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 18/12/2011 23:17

anonacfr I'm afraid what you are saying doesn't reflect the experience of my SIL and my husband's cousins in France where they don't feel they can wear the headscarf if they work in any state run enterprise eg hospital. Clearly none of them can wear a headscarf if they work in a school nor can their daughters wear a headscarf to school and in truth they feel too uncomfortable to wear one to pick their children up from school. Whether or not this strictly required by law these women do not feel able to wear the headscarf in these situations.

GrimmaTheNome · 19/12/2011 14:30

Oh sure, you can make obvious cultural assumptions. And then take offence or not. So, we're guessing what this trainee meant was, "I think you're wearing a symbol of female oppression and that offends me". Well, if she'd had the balls to engage in the real issue rather than a mealy-mouthed objection to 'headscarves' I'd have a bit more respect for her - but I suspect she'd be in for a worse ticking off from HR.

Chaz - if non-face-covering scarves are a problem, just wondering if there would be any issue in a French school or hospital with a nun wearing her wimple or whatever its called. If not, why not? Why does it only seem to be the headgear of Muslim women which is called into question? (Stupid hats in churches or Ascot probably derive originally from women having to cover their heads in Christian cultures come to that ..yes, I know I'm straying into absurdity again!)

lambethlil · 19/12/2011 14:49

anoncfr

Why do you think I am saying French women are racist? My point about the three incidents in 20 years is that it is longstanding cultural norm to challenge headscarf wearing in France.

The fact that the niqab is now banned is a red herring, as Chasz points out in France it is absolutely not OK to go out in a headscarf.

littleducks · 19/12/2011 15:21

As a tourist I have worn a headscarf in Paris, in disneyland and tourist spots with no problems. However my husbands aunt and cousins (5 girls) live there and find it really tough. Only one wears a scarf now. They had a horrid time with pressures at school, if you want a job, people in the street etc. This is seen as normal to them and there friends (oldest is in 20s now)

tomverlaine · 19/12/2011 15:39

I think you were reasonable to complain although it would have been better to have spoken to her directly at the time (although I understand the difficulty) - it sounds to be that she is still on that studenty high horse of asserting her politcal opinions/trying to make a point
I do understand why wearing headscrafs can be seen as offensive (caveating that by saying I know headscarfs are worn for differing reasons) - as people assume that the person wearing one has strong religious views and is in someway flaunting - and if someone is wearing something which (appears to alude) to certain views it may in some way detract/influence how you take what they are saying. I also think to be honest that I would find it difficult in a business meeting to deal with someone wearing a full face covering/niqab as i think facial expression/appearing to be open is important in communication and it instinctively feels like someone is hiding something...BUT i still wouldn't ask them to remove it in that way

yellowraincoat · 19/12/2011 15:43

God, really tomverlaine? You can understand how headscarves are offensive? To me, that's just so weird. Maybe you disagree with them, but they're hardly offensive.

It's a piece of clothing for goodness sake.

Sorry you had to listen to this woman's comment, boatdeliah, I think you did the right thing.

d1159391552709b001622 · 19/12/2011 15:50

You definitely didn't over-react. She needed to be told, and her managers need to know. If she felt able to mention it to you on a first meeting, who knows what else she might do/say at a later date.

tomverlaine · 19/12/2011 15:53

They are offensive if they represent to you something that you disagree with and find offensive (I am not saying that I find them offensive myself though) - they are symbolic to a lot of people and a symbol of something they don't like.
Not sure why it is weird- some people get offended if you don't take off your hat when speaking to them
It is weird that she thought it appropriate to say anything

FlangelinaBallerina · 19/12/2011 18:09

Grimma, as I understand it a nun's wimple wouldn't be allowed in French state schools either. The ban is on religious clothing- I know Sikh turbans aren't allowed either. OP's headgear would probably fall foul too. It's interesting that you mention France and nuns, because French secularism actually stems from conflict with the Catholic Church. I don't think headscarves should be banned, personally, as it's encroaching on personal liberty too much. But they do contradict the French republican value of equality, when worn because the wearer thinks God obliges women to cover.

Personally, I would have no respect for the trainee if she'd done what you suggest- and have none for her for bothering OP because of her clothing anyway. But the assumption she made is actually the correct one, to be fair to her. The issue is the way she behaved, not the conclusion she drew.

NewGirlInTown · 20/12/2011 00:15

OP is completely over reacting to try and ruin someone's career over this. Get over yourself.

NotADudeExactly · 20/12/2011 06:43

NewGirlInTown, I think that's not quite fair to the OP.

Apart from the OP's right not to have her wardrobe choices dictated by some random trainee, there's however also another issue which makes me think that, yes, an employer will need to know about such issues:

The woman in question obviously has a very unorthodox understanding of common business etiquette or even a basic sense of tact. As her manager, I absolutely would want to know as I would not want this person to chase my clients away.

I'm saying this as a person who once had the questionable pleasure of line managing a woman who was quite openly racist. She was a huge liability and managed to cause internal strife as well as generate customer complaints during her short employment.

Nobody is claiming that the woman in question has no right to her beliefs - but if anyone is ruining her career it is her; not because of what she thinks but because she obviously lacks the most basic skills needed for working life.

weevilswobble · 20/12/2011 07:09

I would have gone back to the meeting and asked all those present if anyone else in the room was offended. It would hopefully have made her feel a bit Blush
Sorry you are dealing with this moron. YANBU

ZonkedOut · 20/12/2011 07:12

I wonder if she would be offended at a Sikh man wearing a turban? Probably not, because it is a man, but it's just the same, really, as long as the individuals make the choice about whether to wear the head gear or not.

lambethlil · 20/12/2011 09:50

Newgirl you are so wrong. As Notadude explains this trainee is a liability to her company. The OPs feelings are almost irrelevant.

Onemorning · 20/12/2011 11:50

Do one Newgirl. Honestly.

chipmonkey · 20/12/2011 12:02

NewGirl better that this trainee is told right at the start that she cannot go around offending people, before she does ruin her career by doing this as a company manager.

GrimmaTheNome · 20/12/2011 13:20

Flange -ah, thanks for that re France. I agree with you on banning, but if they are going to then at least they're even handed.

runningwilde · 20/12/2011 15:17

I am stunned at her offensive rudeness! Good lord! What an idiot she is!

NewGirlInTown · 20/12/2011 19:20

"do one"? Is that a recognised English phrase in chav land? Maybe adding the word "honestly" makes it so? "ponders how to "dishonestly" do one... No. Still doesn't make sense...
Always a joy to encounter clever contributions... Shame yours wasn't one of them, Onemorning.

Onemorning · 20/12/2011 20:25

Chav land? Bless you.

Pot calling kettle re: clever contributions, Newbie.

ChristinedePizaTinsel · 20/12/2011 20:38

You did the right thing but I wouldn't take it any further. IME the sheer overweening self-importance of some graduate trainees is astounding.

I worked in a company once where the MD was doing a series of talks to different groups of people every week explaining changes that were happening to the business. One graduate trainee called the MD's PA to tell her he had study leave that day and could the MD do his speech another day Xmas Shock Xmas Grin

And that is sadly by no means an isolated example

Onemorning · 20/12/2011 20:53

I'm Xmas Shock at that, Christine.

Swipe left for the next trending thread