about this woman r.e headscarfs?

[boatdeliah]

Okay so this may be my 2nd AIBU in as many days but this happened today and really upset me. But I suddenly thought that maybe I was BU about what I did in response - that maybe I over-reacted.

I had to go into a meeting today for work with another company (a formal sort of meeting - in board room, suits, presentations etc). There was about 6 people in the room.

It was a long meeting and thoughout the first half (we had planned a tea break) the woman from the other company kept looking at me (she is new, I have never met her before and when we were introduced they said that she was a graduate on a training scheme and so had been invited into the meeting)

We break for tea and all stand around chatting as you do. I went to pour myself another drink and she approached me.

Anyway after all the hellos and all she looks around and then says slightly quieter - that she doesn't mean to offend me but me wearing a headscarf offends her and would I mind removing it.

Umm - No. I said that yes I would mind and that I found her request very odd.

We got on with the meeting and she was silent for the rest of it (and kept glancing at me)

When we got back to our office - I phoned up the person incharge of her in her dept (who couldn't be in meeting but whom I know very well). Then emailed that person - CC in their head of HR and the person in charge of graduate schemes in that company, Saying what had happened, what I had said, and what I thought of the request, inappropiateness of it. Basically making a complaint just not making it very formal.
On the phone her manager did ask if I wanted to make it a formal compalint - and I said I didn't want to make a snap decision and I would talk to her on monday, but thought I should raise it. (I do know this manager very very well and for a long time)

DH thinks I should just do whatever I feel is right on Monday.

But sitting hear tonight sans headscarf I've got thinking 'did I over do it?' - she's young and new and would have just an email to her manager been alright, and if this becomes something will i may have ruined something for her, she asked I said no - have I made a mountain out of a mole hill? this company could come down hard on this woman is taht fair because of something I have done?

(I wear a mitpachat/snood thing btw)

How odd? I'm not keen on face coverings myself but a headscarf?? How could that offend anyone? Would she have been offended if you'd been wearing a hat?

Her behaviour was appalling, unreasonable and bizarre. Whether motivated by bigotry or ignorance it was completely unacceptable.

I think you did the company a huge favour to inform HR. If I was the boss and heard from HR that someone in my team had done this I'd be seriously considering instant dismissal for gross misconduct. Quite apart from my personal distaste for that sort of bullying, her behaviour could be a serious liability for the company's reputation.

You behaved in a far more dignified and professional way than I would have been capable of, OP. Bravo to you. In your OP you said that you were worried you might have 'ruined things for her' by 'overdoing it'. Absolutely not. She let herself down, and you used the proper channels to let people know what happened. You told the truth, that's all. If you had sent a quick e-mail to her boss, then her boss would have mentioned it to HR anyway if they had an ounce of sense so the result would have been the same.

If her boss takes a similar view of it as I would, do not feel bad. This girl knew that what she was saying was unacceptable - that's why she approached you separately and spoke quietly. If she just gets a warning, and you come across her again, please don't be put off from reporting any other comments or behaviour. That sort of thing cannot be allowed to stand.

YANBU. Hopefully this will nip her stupidity in the bud and top her getting into more trouble later.

However, it's perfectly reasonable and legitimate to be offended by headscarves, and the fact that they represent requirements imposed on women that are not imposed on men.

No. A headscarf is a headscarf. If its been imposed on a woman, that is offensive but we have no way of telling so should butt out. Being 'offended' by a headscarf is making an uninformed judgement.

Bet the young woman isn't 'offended' when she sees a picture of the Queen our wearing a scarf.

Good grief. You did the right thing - and did her and the company a favour. Hopefully she'll learn to be less arrogant. Apart from the general rudeness, the sort of headscarf you describe could easily be worn by someone undergoing chemotherapy. (Not that that makes any other reason for wearing a scarf less important, just that her amazingly bad manners could have left someone distraught.)

Anyone offended?

I wear a headscarf when I visit DH's family in North Africa even though I am a Christian.

I think you were right to report this to her company. I also suspect that she thought you were muslim not jewish (not that it should be relevant) but her level of ignorance in making the comment at all suggests she might not know much about the significance of head covering in other religions (e.g. judaism, sikhism etc).

Would she have objected to a sikh man wearing a turban?

I also feel slightly incredulous about this story, but taking it at face value, it's definitely the right thing to inform her company. I don't know what your company's relationship is with her company, but if she were to say that to a client, for example, she could lose their business. If she became a manager and said it to someone junior, the company could find itself facing a discrimination case. But I do find it very odd in all aspects - that she took offence; that, having taken offence, she felt moved to tell the OP about it; that she did so even though she was a junior member of staff and not even in the same organisation as the OP.

Grimmathenome, in what way is being offended an uninformed judgement? I've read and heard quite a lot about views on the religious requirement (or not) to cover, and there are most certainly some people who think a headscarf is a requirement imposed on women by a deity- a religious obligation, basically, applying only to women. It doesn't matter whether you agree with this or not: such people exist, and the view they hold is offensively sexist.

The queen example is rather silly. As far as I'm aware, she's not wearing it because she believes that God obliges women to do so, although I'm ready to stand corrected. That's why it's not remotely comparable.

Her asking you to do that is outrageous. Do make a formal complaint, what she asked was discrimination and bigoted. there are quite literally 1000s of graduates vying for these schemes are the places deserve to be taken by competent, professional people.

I'm offended by many people's clothing at my place of work.

I wouldn't see fit to pass comment on it though. How odd.

I've been at many meetings where a man is wearing an offensively hideous tie and a woman I worked with had the most ugly shoes but I didn't ask them to remove them - what a daft woman.

Flangelina:>Grimmathenome, in what way is being offended an uninformed judgement?

Because the trainee had no idea of why the OP was wearing a headscarf.

You feel safe assuming the Queen is wearing a headscarf just to keep her hair nice or whatever when she's walking the corgis, but you think its OK to jump to some conclusion about why anyone else would and confront them as being 'offensive'? Maybe the OP is wearing it for reasons ultimately deriving from a sexist religion or culture but you don't know that. She might be suffering from alopaceia or having chemo or just like wearing headscarves.

I used to wear a headscarf from time to time when I was younger because I had horribly greasy hair and I'd have been mortified if some busybody had decided to announce they were 'offended' by it.

"Was she French?"

Does it matter. IN the context of what happened this girl was representing her company and not any nationality.

This girl needs to be more professional and clearly needs help in achieving this.

FFS. French people don't discriminate against headscarves. A law was passed to ban the niqab and any signs of religious affiliations specifically in public schools. Let's not lower the debate with further discrimation.

Grimma, first of all it really isn't an assumption with the queen. She's about the most famous person in the country, and I know what religion she follows. I also know that this religion doesn't specify that women must cover their heads. These things are both common knowledge. I know you're trying to play the whole don't you dare assume argument here, but you're not on very strong ground with the monarch, ffs.

I read the uninformed part as you referring to me, and still suspect that's probably what you actually meant.

Regarding your own experiences, if someone had announced that they were offended by your scarf you would have every right to be upset. However, a person is totally entitled to be offended. We have that right. What we don't have is the right not to be offended. If I saw your scarf, I would be as offended as I liked: this is just as important a freedom as your right to wear it. Incidentally, a scarf on greasy hair is probably going to make the problem worse.

Anacon -not directed at me please - I'm quoting someone far up the post.

YANBU.
How very odd and rude of her.

If I saw someone wearing a scarf like that, I wouldn't even think it was for religious reasons. I live in a very monocultutal part of the UK, so not massively familiar with all the different styles of scarf.
I wear a headscarf quite often (a folded buff) not for religious reasons, just cos my hair is scruffy. The only comment I get is from dh who tells me not to tuck all my hair under it as it makes me look like I'm undergoing chemo.

I asked whether she was French, as over 20 years I can think of 3 different occasions when French women attacked headscarf- wearing women.

Headscarf, not niqab, not face covering.

Unfortuately not just graduates now, look at Nick Griffin, Enoch Powell, etc...

My point about the queen was primarily as the extreme absurbdness of anyone saying 'wearing a headscarf offends' them. The trainee was not offended by the OP wearing a headscarf per se. She was offended because she was making assumptions about why the OP was wearing a headscarf. She is certainly entitled to find sexist religious or cultural practices offensive, but to leap in without any real knowledge of the OP or her reasons for wearing the scarf is presumption - the arrogance of youth I suppose.

I read the uninformed part as you referring to me, and still suspect that's probably what you actually meant.

No, I meant the trainee. Sorry if you misinterpreted that.

I would make a formal complaint, OP. And I wouldn't worry for one minute about getting the brat in trouble. She needs to know this isn't acceptable.

has she emailed you back to appologise and explain? if not I'd think about making a formal complaint.

Sorry you didn't phrase it very well.

As for cultural assumptions, it's usually fairly obvious. People might have varied reasons for wearing a headscarf- Islam, cancer, nun, hoody, old northern woman etc- but they then usually tend to wear the one most normal for their own culture and background. So for example my grandma wears the scarf you'd expect an elderly northern woman to wear, not a niqab. When I was an adolescent and wanted to cover my face to look intimidating, I wore a hoody not a mitpachat. Oh, I'm sure if you google hard enough, you'll be able to find a chemo patient who decided to wear a nun's habit rather than a scarf to cover her head. But however broadminded we may wish to appear, let's not pretend this is in some way comparable to the number of people who wear nun's habits because they're nuns. Or that a nun's habit doesn't represent a particular image, teaching, religion and lifestyle. I'm not saying one can always tell: I remember reading a while ago about orthodox Jewish women wearing burqas in order to cover themselves, for example. But the idea that it's just impossible to get any idea of why someone is wearing a scarf from the way in which they wear it is pretty laughable. Especially as some religious headgear is very recognisable.

giveitago sorry I should have made it clear that I was t responding to you. I know you were quoting someone else.
And 3 separate occasions over 20 years? That settles it. All French women must be racist.