TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

But Hully, not everyone does think feminist means that. Some people will think that feminist means 'activist.'

So they wouldn't say they were a feminist in the same way that they wouldn't say they were a gay rights activist.

It doesn't mean they don't believe in equality.

Wow, I never imagined I'd ever be insulted by a feminist. Quite frankly, you are patronising and condescending.

Most feminists have been to Uni!? How fucking insulting to those of us who haven't. Maybe you just needed to be taught what to think.

I have an easy flow chart

#1 Do you think that all people should be treated, respected, and valued equally, and given equal opportunities, regardless of their gender?
Yes = go to #2, No = you are sexist

#2 Do you think this is not currently the case?
Yes = go to 3, No = you are either quite dim or quite naive, go look at the world a bit with this in mind, then come back and answer yes

#3 Do you want it to be the case?
Yes = you are a feminist, No = you are rather strange

That's what I believe feminist to mean, anyway.

Everything squeakytoy said - some feminists are truly scary.

But then they could say "feminist activist" if they wanted to.

The gen pub don't think feminist = activist any more than they think gay = activist

exactly Hully

it is that simple but sadly feminism is a dirty word to so many yet i wonder who made it a dirty word male dominated media maybe, just a wild guess

ry some PEOPLE are totally scary. Hitler, Pol Pot Dave Cameron, Osborne, Thatcher, Peter Sutcliffe.

That is a stupid thing to say.

Hully - it is a spectrum, a massive spectrum; one where the compromise of one woman's right not to be objectified because other women choose to be naked on page 3 is IMO a pretty pathetic concern compared to women actually being killed for even wanting equality. If you are going to be seriously upset about inequality between the sexes perhaps it's better to start with the really serious issues.

Hully... Perhaps MN should just delete the feminist board - or this one - and everybody can just post on one?

I don't want to hear the "When will it end?" cry. I don't see myself as a second class citizen, neither do I see men that way either. The only people who I think are being treated as 'second class' and below are the people who have nothing - in this and other countries - where poverty is the most pressing issue, affecting men, women and children with impunity.

I don't see myself as 'second class' and I resent the implications in the OP, and have said so.

What squeaky said.

And I find thread title and first post as eye rollingly patronising.

Wow OP that's a massive bit of stereotyping you've got going on there... It's along the lines of 'all cat owners are single women' or 'all dog owners look like their dogs' or 'all femanists are lesbians' Seems you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing?!

Sorry pet owners it was the only thing I could come up with on short notice.

Milly - do you mean they are put off the label because they assoc it with activist?

emmam - why not fight all of them at once?

all beliefs have a fanatical and militant followers every religion does but are some so fearful of beign classed that as to not say they are a feminist or to shun feminism

shame on you

I don't think gay and feminist are similar in this context. Gay and woman would be similar in this context. But I take your point Hully. It was just an impression I got that people think feminists are people who go on marches, campaign against things and so on. But I could very well be mistaken.

Women are paid less than men.

Women occupy fewer of the top jobs.

There are far fewer women in govt.

I could go on. But the de facto evidence is that women are indeed second class.

also, lesbians can wear make up and shave their legs (sometimes simultaniously)

i do mind about personal safety, i also mind about child safety and my husband worried about his safety at night. reclaim the streets ...but do it for all i say.

the bbc sports thing doesn't bother me and i don't know if it should. I do get ever so irked that womens football is largely ignored.

i do mind about trafficking, i mind about a lot of human rights abuses and am a member of amnesty.

i dont know why feminists get riduculed

page three is disgusting and i highly recomend that people go to bbc i player radio 4 and listen to richard hemmings programme ( cant remember the name) ver interesting on this topic

but i actually disagree with the supposition that women don't care. i think they do

i also disagree with the supposition that i have to be a feminist to fight for the rights of women

ry some PEOPLE are totally scary. Hitler, Pol Pot Dave Cameron, Osborne, Thatcher, Peter Sutcliffe.

Not quite sure how Hitler and Pol Pot and Sutcliffe can be categorised with the other three, and think that has to be one of the silliest posts I have ever read on here!

I don't know, Milly. They certainly, as Freudian said, have been given a dirty name by someone!

About the word
Feminism being dirty - according to my feminism book which I have cracked out it was actually VIRGINIA WOOLF who denounced it as a dead word, a corrupt word.

I'm 2 pages into this book and already very very interesting

custy, you should put in the bit about class otherwise peole won't know why you don't call yourself a feminist.

sqeaky - the point was that saying some feminists are scary is a nonsense.

Some every-kind-of-people are scary.

It was extreme egs to make a point.

I am not a second class citizen, although I'm sure there there are people who think I am because I am a SAHM.

I think lots of people get put off of the idea of feminism because of a few militant followers that come across as though women are more important than men, not equal to.

I try to treat everyone the same, male or female, young or old etc as I believe everyone deserves the same level of respect.

Like the OP, it does make me angry, for example, to go into my local newsagents for a paper & see on shelf at about waist height the front page of a 'paper' with a bent-over, almost naked 'babe', its not just page 3 anymore

I've taken to turning them over when I see them.

Where are the papers objectifying men like that?