TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

^I have just come back to MN after a period of not posting much because I was getting put off bothering with the place due to the regular feminist bashing threads.
Don't people see how unpleasant it is to do this? Did you report those threads?^

Over and over again other MN'ers report they find the MN Feminists rude and hostile. I joined MN while 2 x 1000 post threads went off in a few days saying just this.

Does it ever occur to you they may say that because its their honest experience?

I think the last times I was hostile to another poster in the FWR were the following;

• A poster called me insane.
• A poster called me a manhater and suggested that the men in my life must have damaged me and that was why I am one of those manhating radical feminists. (To be fair she did apologise after I pointed out what she had done).
• A poster called me a troll numerous times over numerous threads.
• A male poster tried to get women to talk about what it felt like to be raped.
• A male poster hinted that it would be easy to track anyone of us down in real life and stalk us or rape us (this was a 'joke').
• A male poster copied and pasted posts from MN onto another forum and then attacked and insulted us (ugly, insane, in need of a good fucking, etc).
• A male poster came onto a thread where women were exchanging stories about birth trauma and behaved in an insensitive and unpleasant fashion and took over parts of the thread.
• A poster suggested that I was obsessed with porn on a thread discussing the porn industry.
• A poster called me various names because I don't think bikini car washes are hilarious fun.

I could go on but I'm boring myself and starting to feel a bit hostile.

The threads you refer to were very very unpleasant. Unfortunately there were also quite a lot of claims made about the nasty feminists that turned out to not be quite the way they were described, when the posters were asked if they could link to the threads in question. The sort of thing I mean is a poster saying The Feminists were rude and nasty to me when the first thing the person had posted in a discussion was that the subject was not worth discussing and that we were insane for wanting to discuss it. It is hardly surprising that such posts didn't receive a round of applause and a gold star.

There have been several 'welcome to the feminsist section, come and say hello here and ask questions/chat/generally shoot the breeze' - these never seemed to get mentioned. Actually that's not true - I have seen them mentioned in a 'how patronising is THAT' sort of way. Charming.

If anyone is still on this thread - this is an interesting piece - on the proportions of women represented in the public life, ie politics, media and elsewhere. It's not great - on average 22% are women - even on 'female' issues.

And in terms of newspapers, much as I hate it, the Daily Mail is the only one that's close to 50-50.

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/dec/04/why-british-public-life-dominated-men

I cautiously identify as a feminist. I say cautiously not because of how people in general life will take it but because of how I have seen certain feminists treat others who dont always see things their way.

I have seen a (self confessed drunk at the time) feminist on here drive a male victim of domestic violence off a discussion thread. She did later apologise, but im not sure he has ever come back.

I saw another thread where a group of feminists attempted to bully a wife into believing that her husband raped her because he has a sleep disorder. Even when she had clearly stated that she was awake and consenting to sex.

This is the kind of thing that puts people off of identifying as feminists. am very grateful for what feminism has given women. And would not stand for being treated as second class. Im sure that this post will ruffle a few feathers but so be it. As a group we feminists need to be sure that we are not replacing misogyny with another set or controls that tells women how to think feel and behave. It is examples like the two I mentioned that unfortunatly get remembered and drive women away from feminism.

Yes the examples I posted earlier are thankfully rare, and the vast ( and I do mean very vast) majority of feminists including most of those posting in FWR are great people. Many of them I admire and a few I would love to meet of life ever gave me that chance.

But that still dosent excuse the fact that if that is your first real meeting with radical feminism then it will give a very wrong impression indeed. And will often result in a woman being put of or a man believing that all feminists are man haters. I know that true man haters are very rare and not the norm. But do others realise this as easily? For what its worth I gain a lot of information and knowledge from FWR on here. And DH has even posted in there once or twice (and those posts were well received and were treated with respect, even though he was clearly and openly a male poster). Its not that MN feminists are man haters or bullys in general. If that were the case I would be gone like a shot never to return.

So lets challenge what needs challenging and deal with misogyny, without resorting to harassing each other. I know from experience just how easy it is to come over as overbearing and bossy ( rude and bullying ) when you are passionate about something and care to the core of your being. But I also try to be aware that coming across like that will not help convince others.

Sorry for repeating myself on my second post . I didnt realise that I had left the first bit in the box and sent it with the bit I wanted to post

Beachcomber, stop acting all hurt and victim like. It's a fact that quite a few Mnetters find some posters who hang out on the FWR boards as the way I describe, harassing, bullying etc. It's nothing to do with the fact they are feminists, it's their behaviour that people find off, not that they are feminists. there are many reasonable and welcoming women who post on the FWR board. Are you saying that what all these posters feel is wrong, just some dislike for feminism? If you don't act in this way, why are you getting so upset - you would obviously be one of the feminist posters who people enjoy interacting with. If you think these claims are being levelled at you, then maybe you need to think about how you come across. I will not be naming who I find this way as generally I just refuse interact with them so it's up to you if you are going to take my comments personally.

I don't report posters or threads as I prefer to let comments stand so people can make their own minds up about what people are posting.

Sorry not buying it, no where did I say Beachcomber is any of these things, I did not single her out so do not understand why she is so offended by my comments. If anything, her angry face post seemed to be a direct dig at me. I'm not aware our paths have crossed before.

What an unpleasant post sozzledchops.

And a bit of a personal attack too ('acting hurt and victim like') - one of those sneaky indirect ones that don't quite break the guidelines.

I still think following the MN policy of reporting posts that are out of order, remains preferable to blanket anonymous bitching and name calling on other areas of the forum. I think the latter is dishonest because it is attacking people whilst giving them no chance to defend themselves (by not having the honesty to challenge the person directly or name them) and there is no way for anyone to judge whether the claims made are fair or not. It is just nasty.

I don't think these claims are being levelled at me - I can read and see that they are because I am a member of this blanket unnamed group of posters that is being mentioned. That is what people don't seem to get - by going on about some unnamed mysterious couple of individuals whilst making reference to a whole group with talk of ganging up, bullying, mates congratulating each other, etc, the attack is felt by pretty much everyone who posts regularly on the FWR section.

And I say that as someone who is no ruder or more aggressive than the average poster on MN.

A few (unhelpful) contributions!
I think some women/young girls enjoy being the object of male attention. I wouldn't judge them for that.

I would not label myself as an active feminist (I'm just not 'political' enough, being a through and through non-confrontational people-pleaser!)

I firmly believe in women's equality - although I've never read any of the mumsnet feminist threads and would probably (but not sure) feel annoyed about being patronised by my fellow women-folk. (maybe I should go and take a look).

Although I firmly believe in women's equality I find it impossible to implement that belief in my day to day life being the product of a pretty 'traditional' bread-winner/sahm family. This does sometimes make me angry and frustrated - (Maybe there's more hope for my dd's generation??)

It must be pretty tiring to strive for a feminist ideal both in society and in one's private life, and wear this feminist badge and fight for every corner. Personally I don't have the energy - what with all the housework and toddler chasing - may have unlocked the key to the problem here.... Are we mostly just too tired to bother?

what sozzledchops said.

Sozzledchops I have no idea whether we have exchanged directly on MN before - I don't think we have.

There are loads of posters who take pops at feminist posters, indeed we have entire threads dedicated to the hobby on a regular basis.

I don't have a problem with you personally and I hope that you don't have one with me either. It is the blanket anonymous thing that is getting my goat.

Lemonmuffin do you ever post on MN other than to pop up and agree with someone criticising the FWR section?

Genuine question because I have any ever seen your username making the above kind of post. It is quite uncanny.

Woah, just read the last few posts (only read the first page) and seen this whole thing was getting quite heated, sorry if my post seems flippant by comparison....

brilliant posts by blackcurrents and co.

Becoming a mum made me a feminist too I guess. Before then I really didn't see the amount of sexism around me

"Are we mostly just too tired to bother?"

Yes, that's true: women and especially mothers work hard and have little time or energy left for political activism (and that's no accident). I've only become more active since my children were older.

I could also say that there are some posters on mumsnet who post aggressively and it seems just to stir up controversy. Is that such a shocking and bullying statement? Is it wrong, are all posters now taking offence at being included under this blanket statement. Leaving thread now, time to pick up the kids.

and hear hear to Blackcurrants' posts. The whingeing about the FWR regulars is so tiresome and yes, as a regular it does feel like a personal attack when people have a go at The Feminists.

Posters are having a go challenging the ideology of radical feminists.
Not feminism.
I would think that most of us are feminists but judging by the content of this thread it would be safe to assume that most feminists are not radical feminists.

There is nothing wrong with challenging the ideology of radical feminists.

I do take umbrage however at attacks on radical feminists themselves (ie personal attacks) and blanket suggestions that radical feminist are extremists.

Radical feminism is called so for a reason. Radical is not synonymous with extreme. 10 seconds on Wikipedia will provide clear information of the definition of radical as it is used to describe feminism.

Very often people who make blanket criticisms of radical feminism don't actually know what the basic definition of the movement even is. It is fine to not know about radical feminism but it is less fine to have a go at the people who are part of it when you don't actually have a clue what they believe in.

We are in the realms of stereotypes, tropes, rumours, memes and smoke and mirrors.

I can take your point because you obviously know more about it than I do beachcomber and if I personally have caused offence to anyone on this thread I apologise.
Having just popped over lurked in feminism I can say that whilst some topics and posts resonate with me there are some that get my heckles up.
So I avoid it.
Does that make sense?

if I need help, in the form of very clear getting-to-the-roots advice, and there were no radical feminists to turn to here I'd seriously consider shooting myself

I do realise this is an argument in favour of abolishing the fwr boards, if you are anyone but me, but I know I'm not the only one who finds it (trolls aside) the safest place on mn

and in reply to the thread title, it's so much more comfortable to pretend women aren't 2nd class citizens, that we aren't equally represented because we don't want that - because of babies and lipstick and shoes and things