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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

489 replies

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:10

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

OP posts:

FreudianSlipper · 02/12/2011 11:28

i was surprised the other day (i was at university) when i mentioned i was a feminist i was asked if i hated men this was by a woman

CandyCaner · 02/12/2011 11:28

But anyone with any education or understanding sees that the connotations (hairy, ugly, man-hating) are largely bollocks. How can people use the logic 'I won't stand up for my rights in case people think I am a fat, hairy man-hater'? So sad. Only women are this self-hating.

HugosGoatee · 02/12/2011 11:29

Why do you think insulting your target audience will bring them round to your way of thinking?

Also, slightly condescending - the vast majority of MNers are feminist and the nature of the site as a women's support network strengthens female discussion, knowledge and awareness - why SHOUT at us?

Original poster

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:29

Sorry Trills, I didnt know capital letters equated shouting, I am old you know! tech sometimes overtakes me. Accept my apologies on that one.

ormIrian - what do you mean go away, this is a discussion. The reason I made the generalisation is it is my experience and I am 52 so I have a bit of experience. I really did not mean to offend anyone it is just what I see in society.

OP posts:

CandyCaner · 02/12/2011 11:30

I dont think the OP meant to insult. She sounds angry, and I can understand why. If I think about these issues, I get angry, too.

babyhammock · 02/12/2011 11:31

Sounds silly but I spent most of my life not really realising this was the case. Did a male orientated degree (beat all the boys) and have a very male orientated career..
It wasn't until I found myself in a very abusive realtionship with someone who viewed women as sub human that I finally woke up and smelt the coffee..

The problem is, forgetting all the superficial leering etc, that many men and indeed women view women as inferior. Its riddled through everything

NinkyNonker · 02/12/2011 11:32

Not posting on the feminist section regularly does not make you a 'non fem'. You come across as fairly patronising towards women, which may just be your tone. I had parents who told me I could be whatever I wanted, I believed them, and have never encountered anything resembling sexism. I went to a good university, have had a successful well paid career, our earnt DH at various points, and am currently a SAHM...I am not, and have never been a second class citizen. And if I see/saw anyone else being treated as such I would speak up.

Kayano · 02/12/2011 11:33

I love how the op has now been slightly 'ageist' 52 is not old and are we supposed to assume that tech overtook you for that reason?

Oh the irony

wannaBe · 02/12/2011 11:34

A lot of feminism is just mysoginy (sp?) in reverse, IMO.

but to answer some of your points op:

I don't care that the bbc sports personality has an all male line up because there haven't been any particular sporting achievements by women over the past year apart from in extreme minority sports that nobody gives a shit about anyway and the same would apply if there participants were men. The outcry over it is just hysteria from women who like to be professional victims on behalf of all women...

I don't "not care" that I can't walk around certain areas on my own at night - my choice to not walk around certain parts at night is one which is based on common sense not an acceptance that doing so is asking to be raped and then blamed for it. It's a fact that if you take certain risks then the chances of something happening to you are increased. That doesn't mean you are to blame, but if you can take steps to minimise the risk of being a victim then why would you not do so? This applies in all walks of life not just where women could potentially fall victim to rape. I'm sure there are places where it not safe for lone men to walk around at night either for fear of being mugged - would you consider they were accepting defeat if they choose not to do so?

Some women are trafficked for sex - and some women actively choose to become a part of the sex industry. I don't buy porn - I don't necessarily agree with it but I am not responsible for what happens to other women any more than I am responsible for what happens to starving children in the 3rd world.

Original poster

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:34

Hugos - I wasnt insulting anyone. I just wanted to discuss something I have wondered about for a long, long time. Please see my previous thread re shouting. That was not my intention. I do not shout at anyone so I am really sorry about that. I am hopeless with tech.

Candycaner - I think you understand what I am asking and thanks for your replies.

I am not anti women. I am anti bigotry. The examples I gave were just ones that affect me.

From most of the replies, I think CandyCaner has got it right.

OP posts:

minimisschief · 02/12/2011 11:35

im going to go through your post point by point

women can walk around whenever they want at night. As a man so can i. Bad things can happen to both genders. statistically bad things happen more to males in their 20s. no one is blamed for bad things happening to them but people have to realise,both men and women that you take a risk when you wander around in the dead of night alone.In an ideal world it wouldnt happen. but it does so you either suckit up and do not wander around at night or take a risk.

why would women mind that bbc sports is male? It doesnt actually matter who is doing it. I am sure women can do it just as well if they wanted to.

I am sure women and men both care that women are ought and sold for sex. I am sure they care that children are too. i am sure not every woman and male prostitute are made to. I would assume like anyone sane that it is out of our control and it is a police matter.

women probably ridicule you for being feminist because they are generalising you to be someone who make issues out of things that are unimportant and ignore things that are. For example look at the feminist board on here and look at some of the pointless discussions. yet there are few discussions on things like equal pay.

women probably think it is ok for men to 'leer' at naked women in magazines and videos the same way they are happy to 'leer' at naked men themselves. I really do not see the problem when for example women make a nude calender. They chose to do it and knew who would buy it andhad no problem with it.So why should you. Again same with male nude calenders.

Sevenfold · 02/12/2011 11:35

you comment on men leering at woman's bodies in a newspaper.
so woman never look at men.....??
you have a topic where you can post

AgentZigzag · 02/12/2011 11:36

If you wanted a discussion about it you'd not be ranting.

How would anyone fare if they started to discuss what they thought of feminism or felt about the world they lived in?

The way you talk in your posts and OP just makes me think it'll be more of the same.

altinkum · 02/12/2011 11:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HugosGoatee · 02/12/2011 11:38

Lol at CandyCaner 'getting it right'

Is your definition of 'right' agreement?

Original poster

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:38

Sorry, Kayono, my ageist remark was meant to be a joke. I work in IT! Please accept my apologies for that one too, I obviously didnt come across very well. I know 52 is not old fgs

OP posts:

nofrikkincarbs · 02/12/2011 11:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

NinkyNonker · 02/12/2011 11:43

Getting it right... Oh dear. So if someone else's experiences don't tally with your's they are getting it wrong? Interesting, and slightly contradictory.

Kayano · 02/12/2011 11:44

Don't FGS me when obv you don't seem to realise how you come across I work in IT too.

My experience of a feminist recently included me going to the doctor with anxiety/ depression and my feminist doctor would not give me a sick note because I worked in a 'male dominated' environment and would look bad and hamper career progression. I ended up having near enough a breakdown a while ago which only made it worse.

She was more interested in my place as a woman working in a male environment than helping me, to te very detriment of my mental health.

While its not always the case I do think a lot of people get so caught up in it and passionate they actually overlook the very women they are talking about

MillyR · 02/12/2011 11:44

Women who would not consider themselves to be feminists, or who aren't even that familiar with the concept, act in ways that are feminist all the time.

The fact that huge numbers of women choose to come on MN, where they know most of the posters are mothers, when they could choose to go on to a male dominated site and discuss many of the same issues speaks volumes.

ladydeedy · 02/12/2011 11:46

i hold doors open for men too. I also would offer up my seat to a man if he looked in need. I think it's all rubbish. I dont see that there is inequality. I earn a good salary, got a good education and can do what I pretty much like. As an earlier poster said, the danger of walking around at night are equally there for men (in fact they are statistically more likely to be attacked). I dont know what the problem is. We have choice!

Original poster

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:46

Nofrik - calling me an idiot is a good idea then!!!!!!!! I too am happy for a man to hold a door open for me - for the record - to me its not an issue.

Obviously, women on here dont like discussing women's issues. Oh well.

OP posts:

StaceymAloneForver · 02/12/2011 11:47

sevenfold i feel the comment you have a topic where you can post is highly uncalled for, just because OP is a feminist does not mean she can only post in the feminist section!

as for second class citizen, i have never felt that anybody i know personally has looked at me/my peers with that in mind.
I feel you have no right to say I (or others) do not care about these issues, just because I/we do not protest about them.

Kayano · 02/12/2011 11:48

We are discussing it...

MillyR · 02/12/2011 11:48

Posters on here are constantly discussing women's issues. Do you think the whole of MN is devoted to talking about what their husbands are up to?

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