TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

I really mind this bit - other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked.

I live near prostitutes and although I am on hello and waving terms with the older ladies at the front (madams? or just old working ladies? who knows), I just don't have the nerve to go over there and into the back houses where I never see anyone and ask - so anyone here against their will?

So I guess the reason I don't do anything about it is because I am a coward.

My dc asked me in bewilderment why all the papers had "naked ladies" on them.

Says it all.

How can you fight every facet of gender inequality in one fell swoop?

Just for the record I am a feminist and I shave my legs because it feels nice when you get into bed not because a man makes or expects me too!

I am no second class citizen - how rude!

how can you not try, emman?

I'm glad to hear it empire.

I have friends who mind about all the things you state in your post OP, and don't describe themselves as feminists, in fact wrinkle their noses at the word.

It has unfortunately been co-opted by some people as meaning "hairy, shouty man-hater". When I explain what feminism actually means, they agree (reluctantly) that it does define them. I have noticed a massive rise in the use of the word 'equalist'

Basically I don't think that women don't care, I think they don't like the label. and I also think that people just get on with their lives, they can't and won't jump up and down every day. And some people just aren't political, never were, never will be.

We should reclaim the word feminism.

Also, I don't have an issue with your original post, but I do have an issue with you staying rather sulkily that no-one is interested in discussing it when you have more than 100 replies (maybe this is why your discussions with women are depressing - you discount responses) - and also suggesting that only Candy is getting it 'right'.

As I am a woman, and a feminist and an individual, my view of what is feminism for me will be different to someone else interpretation of the word. This does not make it wrong.

The meaning of a word does not constrain it - I think it's no coincidence that Structuralism/Deconstructionism in language and people like Derrida, Kofman and Foucault were writing in the era of radical feminism.

hully, stop reading the Daily Star, you bring this on yourself

When DP mentioned about there being 'nothing wrong' at leering at 'babes' on the TV etc, lapdancing etc, I asked how he would feel if we had a DD and she wanted to do that? Or if his sister wanted to do that, or I, his partner?

Would that be OK too? definitely not. Made him think.

Absolutely nothing wrong with this being in AIBU, IMO.

shes a VHM reader fer sure.

glad this isn;t in the feminist topic, i try not to post there as i feel bullied if i disagree.

'stating rather sulkily' not staying!

HATE the 'babes' in Sun/Star. Visitors to the UK find it very, very odd that a mainstream paper I actually find it even more annoying that they don't have opinions, just sub editor-written bon mots on their pics.

Try again:

I HATE the 'babes' in Sun/Star. Visitors to the UK find it very, very odd that a mainstream paper has tits akimbo.

I actually find it even more annoying that they don't have opinions, just sub editor-written bon mots on their pics.

This whole thread is actually infuriating. YABVU.

1. Why do you assume the posters here aren't feminists? because they are not vocal about page 3? let me ask then, if being vocal is whats needed why haven't the shouty feminists got rid of it long ago?
2. what has whether you shave your legs got to do with anything?
3. WHY O WHY O WHY don't shouty feminists realise that criticising other women for not doing things "their way" is anti feminist in itself? Is ita lack of education? Arrogence?
4. notice the distinction between shouty feminists and feminists. Your way is not the only way. If it worked, we would not be having this low brow conversation about it.

Custardo You're not the only one

I'm clicking the 'like' button on your post, serenity.

oh dear

'I believe in equality, but I also believe that men and women are different, have different strengths, different attitudes, and different traits. Some things are typically male, others are typically female. It is not stereotyping, it is nature.'

Precisely.

Biological determinism!

Whoo hoo!

I find it telling how many women are put off feminism because feminists are 'shouty' or 'bossy' or 'strident'. Which is ironic really. Being put in neat little well-behaved boxes all tied up with pink bows is the reason we needed feminism in the first place

THIS:
Trills Fri 02-Dec-11 12:23:44
I have an easy flow chart

#1 Do you think that all people should be treated, respected, and valued equally, and given equal opportunities, regardless of their gender?
Yes = go to #2, No = you are sexist

#2 Do you think this is not currently the case?
Yes = go to 3, No = you are either quite dim or quite naive, go look at the world a bit with this in mind, then come back and answer yes

#3 Do you want it to be the case?
Yes = you are a feminist, No = you are rather strange

Also, re: lesbianism/femisism. Most women are actually femisists if you use the above definition, all lesbians are women ergo a large number of lesbians (and any other dub group of women)

I'm shocked, and to be honest pleased that there are so many women here have never perceived themselves to have faced any sexism, really count yourselves lucky - but do you really think that sexism doesn't exist??? I've never been mugged (no one I know has either) but I'm aware that mugging happens, and would never dream of making a blanket statement that it's been eradicated just because I happen to have been lucky

Another 'like' for Serenity's post.

I could post 'oh dear' on a lot of posts and threads, Hully. Doesn't add much other than an obvious "You're wrong again" kind of sub-text though.

It's not shouting I mind, it's the 'my way or the highway' business. As if womankind is an amorphous mass with only one opinion.

That in itself is deeply reductive, mysoginistic thinking - that all women are the same and one size fits all.

Second class citizen? Really?

I am twenty years younger than the OP so maybe the wisdom of experience gives her a fuller perspective, but as a Mum with a full time job in the City who splits domestic responsibility 50:50 with DH I have never felt like this.

Even at school (admittedly an all girls' school), it never crossed my mind that things like university entrance would not be absolutely equal with the boys in my year.

I think it's quite ridiculous to compare caring about the trafficking of women to the BBC SPOTY by the way. One is an issue of human rights, of humanity. The other is a fairly sizeable cockup by a corporation who should know better.

As a mother of a DD, I care about the images of women all over our press, but vote with my £. I feel that it up to me to demonstrate to her what a healthy woman should eat, do in terms of exercise and the need to respect herself. She's very young, maybe I'm being naive. Things aren't perfect and they won't be until women stop accepting cash for stripping off to add to Murdoch's millions. I do not however, accept the assertion that she will "not have the same rights" as a boy.

oh stop shouting orm

nature wants you to be quiet

(The Oh dear was for Deck the Huge, should put names on fast moving threads!)