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AIBU?

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Original poster

To be hugely pissed of with my radical feminist friend.

225 replies

NambaJam · 17/10/2011 14:57

She was at my house this morning and felt it her place to lecture me that because I am married I am in servitude. (WTF!) And another lecture that allowing my husband to have PIV sex with me was tanatamount to him sexualy assaulting me on a regular basis.

Now I can utterly accept her not wanting to have PIV sex. But who the fuck is she to tell me I damn well shouldnt? She then banged on that it was abusive due to the risk of unwanted pregnancy. (DH has had the snip, so no risk) I happen to like being penetrated and will happily penetrate myself for enjoyment.
Sex for me is a very varied thing and involves many things.

I know that some feminists have strong views on marriage, but again its my life and MY choice. And I certainly dont live in any kind of bloody servitude.

OP posts:
EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:12

Excuse me, but there were three pages mocking the opposite view to yours, so I do not really think you are hard done by.

Georgimama · 17/10/2011 20:18

I think what was being mocked was the laughable viewpoint of the OP's friend. If you share the POV that consensual PIV sex is degrading then I am going to laugh at you too. But it doesn't mean I don't believe in lesbians nor that I am a Victorian man.

tyler80 · 17/10/2011 20:19

So to get this clear in my mind, the feminist viewpoint is that it's wrong that only penetrative sex is counted as sex? But I'm not sure that most people view 'sex' as something that includes intercourse only

If someone was to ask for example "how often a week do you have sex" I wouldn't distinguish between times when PIV intercourse occurs and when it doesn't.

I thought it was only members of the Silver Ring Thing who thought nothing but PIV counted as sex?

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:24

TBH, I didn't read it that way georgie. And I didn't mean to suggest you don't believe in lesbians. I was trying to suggest by an analogy that the mockery of the idea that sex is defined as PIV is a cultural construct, and we might one day think it's as odd as the ideas the Victorians had.

tyler - yes, I think that's the point - that some people think only PIV is 'real' sex. Others don't, of course ... but plenty do, you can see from this thread. georgie, above, reckons that for her, only PIV is 'sexual intercourse'; others have said other stuff like oral is foreplay, not sex.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:26

(Btw, no, I don't think consensual sex should be degrading. I do think, though, that merely consenting to something doesn't make it not-degrading ... but that's a separate issue IMO, one that reflects the broader dynamics of an abusive relationship.)

tyler80 · 17/10/2011 20:30

I read it that Georgie thinks that only PIV is 'sexual intercourse' not that only PIV is sex.

SolidGoldVampireBat · 17/10/2011 20:31

The thing with PIV sex is that actually, if it's all you do, it is actually a bit boring for women. Most women have more and better orgasms from being licked out or using a vibrator on the clit rather than penetration. Actually plenty of men would rather have a blowjob than PIV.
If the OP's friend exists and the OP is not yet another one going 'Look, feminism's HOWWIBLE, women MUST HEED THE WARNINGS and abandon feminism NOW!' then the friend is probably someone who is a) quite young or b) has just discovered radical feminism and is therefore being overexcited and insensitive as people often are when they've just discovered something new and can't understand why no one else is as thrilled by it as they are.
But it's a little depressing how many people are going waaa, waa, I like PIV sex so if you don't not only is there something wrong with you but you're trying to SPoil My WOnderful Heteronormative Life.'
PIV is just not compulsory, that's all.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:32

Yes, me too tyler. That's what I was disagreeing with.

Why is only PIV 'intercourse'?

tyler80 · 17/10/2011 20:36

"Why is only PIV 'intercourse'?"

Because that's what it means?

My gynaecologist tells me to abstain from sexual intercourse for 2 weeks after a procedure, he doesn't tell me to abstain from sexual relations or sex because that is open to interpretation and it's only the penis in vagina bit that actually matters in these circumstances.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:36

I think one of the problems I have with the idea that PIV is sex or PIV is intercourse for heterosexuals is this: straight couples tend also to do stuff like blowjobs, cunnilingus, fingers, maybe anal sex. If we say PIV = intercourse or PIV = sex, we're saying these are something else. Maybe foreplay, maybe a sex act ... but not sex itself. Yet for homosexual couples presumably these acts are 'sex itself'? So what ... are we saying the sex gay people have is really only a side act to what is 'real' sex for straight people?

I don't like that line of questioning so would rather see it all as sex, plain and simple.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:39

tyler, sorry, I think we're talking cross-purposes.

I know how 'intercourse' is normally used. But there's no special reason other than convention why we use words like 'sex' and 'intercourse' to refer to PIV. PIV is really clumsy as a term, but at least it does make sense and doesn't imply that other kinds of sex are lesser. IMO 'intercourse' is a general term, isn't it? You qualify it - sexual intercourse, or social intercourse. If you use it to refer to a particular sex act, you (or society) are making a statement about what you think is the default sex act.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:41

(To make an analogy ... about saying 'that's what it means' - people also used to think that one of the things the word deviant 'means' was 'homosexual'. Sad, but true. Language evolves when we try to question things, IMO.)

FreudianSlipper · 17/10/2011 20:41

well that is feminists for you

they all hate men you know

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/10/2011 20:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FreudianSlipper · 17/10/2011 21:00

no no i read it in the daily mail

SolidGoldVampireBat · 17/10/2011 21:23

I don't have a problem with believing that intercourse means PIV. But I don't define all sex as intercourse, either. It is, actually, quite interesting when you think about it as the boundaries are a little fuzzy. Not many people would define kissing as 'sex' even when the people kissing each other are people who are having, or intending to begin, a sexual/romantic relationship (as opposed to kissing a friend or relative in greeting). But how about wanking someone else off? Presumably that counts as 'sex' to most people, but not to everyone.

Uppity · 17/10/2011 21:31

Oh please. If the OP's friend is real, I'm a banana. She's just setting up one of these mythical radical feminists that don't actually exist and my question to her is why is she friends with this bad mannered loon if she's so awful? Pull the other one.

Glad it's turned into an interesting discussion about PIV sex though, bet she wasn't expecting that.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 21:35

Hmm. 'Intercourse' on its own is an incredibly general term. It only comes to be used for sex at all when people want a nice euphemism (as opposed to having a nice chat, which is social intercourse). It just seems daft to me to say that 'intercourse' should mean only PIV - unless you think PIV is the definitive form of sex.

I agree it's funny how fuzzy the boundaries are. It's all good fun, or should be.

rycooler · 17/10/2011 21:36

PIV is sexual intercourse for me - everything else ( oral/whatever ) are just nice additions.

Hullygully · 17/10/2011 21:38

BOLLOCKS

YET MORE BOLLOCKS

tyler80 · 17/10/2011 21:47

I don't follow

"It just seems daft to me to say that 'intercourse' should mean only PIV"

Intercourse is PIV
Any other sexual act (and this includes PIV) is sex imo

I don't get why intercourse should mean any sort of sexual activity when sex sums it up quite nicely and intercourse is fairly unambiguous for use in certain contexts e.g. the doctor scenario mentioned earlier.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 21:53

I'm probably not explaining very well.

What I'm asking is, why is the word defined that way? It didn't originate as an unambiguous term at all (the opposite), so why? IMO, it's to do with social attitudes towards sex that developed in our society, and which saw sex in a male-centric way. We may not see it like that any more, so do we also want to think about changing the word? Words do change a lot when attitudes change - look at how a word like 'queer' was once considered a normal and literally descriptive term for a homosexual person, then came to be considered very rude, and is now being reclaimed. I think it's worth thinking about. Doesn't have to mean any of us do anything different with our partners, and more than changing the meaning of the word 'queer' made us all more gay (despite what my granny would have thought! Hmm).

Uppity · 17/10/2011 21:58

Jane Austen et al always talked about "social intercourse" Intercourse just meant interaction. So sexual intercourse, just means sexual interaction, in its original meaning.

So why has it come to mean sexual interaction involving a penis in a vagina?

Or does it? Can only heterosexual couples have sexual intercourse/ interaction?

tyler80 · 17/10/2011 21:59

"So why has it come to mean sexual interaction involving a penis in a vagina?"

It's a fairly standard legal definition in a lot of places

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 22:04

tyler, I don't think Uppity is denying that, and I'm certainly not.

I'm not putting this well ... the point is, not 'what does this word mean?', but 'why does it mean that?' And what does it say about us as a society?

I'm sorry, I am a language geek and well aware of it ... but it does really interest me to think how all our assumptions and half-conscious thoughts and even the things we've never really bothered to think about are caught up in the words we use all the time.