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AIBU?

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Original poster

To be hugely pissed of with my radical feminist friend.

225 replies

NambaJam · 17/10/2011 14:57

She was at my house this morning and felt it her place to lecture me that because I am married I am in servitude. (WTF!) And another lecture that allowing my husband to have PIV sex with me was tanatamount to him sexualy assaulting me on a regular basis.

Now I can utterly accept her not wanting to have PIV sex. But who the fuck is she to tell me I damn well shouldnt? She then banged on that it was abusive due to the risk of unwanted pregnancy. (DH has had the snip, so no risk) I happen to like being penetrated and will happily penetrate myself for enjoyment.
Sex for me is a very varied thing and involves many things.

I know that some feminists have strong views on marriage, but again its my life and MY choice. And I certainly dont live in any kind of bloody servitude.

OP posts:
unfitmother · 17/10/2011 18:49

I'd love a bit of PIV Envy

catgirl1976 · 17/10/2011 18:52

Sorry APF

catgirl1976 · 17/10/2011 19:03

Its just that I really find the arguement that "PIV" sex is degrading to women really annoying.

Sex is either consensual, in which case it degrades no one, or it is non consensual in which case it is rape or at least abusive.

To say that any form of consensual sex is degrading to womem suggest to me that the consent given by a women is somehow not the same as the consent given by a man, which seems like suggesting in turn that women are automatically unequal, or have less assertion or don't actually know their own minds. I find that very strange.

The OPs "friend" (if they exist) was talking about "PIV" sex in a loving marriage so I don't see how the arguements about STDs or pregancy apply. Plus men can get STDs too and whilst me don't get pregant they don't always wish to impregante people either. I just find it a very very odd argument. I also find this argument suggest men enjoy sex more than women, which again I think is a very sweeping statement that should not be made.

No form of consenting sexual act between two willing adults degrades the other. Any other form of sex (Eg where there isn't consent) is not sex at all - its something different.

For a woman to conclude that all "PIV" sex degrades all women does suggest to me she has had some very bad experiences and that is a real shame, but its a bit like a beaten dog coming to the conclusion all humans are violent.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 19:03

Oh, come on, this is ridiculous. Saying PIV is great for all women is like the Emperor's New Clothes.

Sure, some women find it dead easy to orgasm vaginally. I know, I'm one of them. But most do not. Guess why? Yep, that's right: look where the clitoris is.

I don't have sex with my DH in order to procreate. If you do, and if you're some kind of strict religious believer who feels that biological function is the defining feature of sex, fair enough. Otherwise, honestly the 'but PIV is proper sex cos of biology' thing makes no sense. Much better and healthier to acknowlege that all sorts of other kinds of sex are just as good, thanks very much. And no, the sex that makes me come is not 'foreplay', it's sex. Foreplay implies we ought to be doing something else - some real, honest, baby-making sex - afterwards. And sorry, I do not live in 1950.

If this OP is genuine, her mate was very rude to talk to her like that, and sounds like she'd got the wrong end of the stick about PIV and feminism. But it is a little silly reading a load of grown women who don't even realize that something other than PIV just might considered real, normal, heterosexual sex.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 19:04

(Btw, that wasn't a reply to your last post catgirl, just a general ramble!)

catgirl1976 · 17/10/2011 19:05

ella - I think there are loads of other things which are real, normal, heterosexual sex, but that still doesnt make the argument that "PIV" sex is necessarily degrading to women valid.

MissPenteuth · 17/10/2011 19:05

Grin You know you've crossed a line when a poster recently known as AnyCorpseFucker tells you your post was unpleasant catgirl.

catgirl1976 · 17/10/2011 19:06

oh - sorry - I thought that was to me and just wanted to clarify I didnt think PIV was the ONLY sex :)

catgirl1976 · 17/10/2011 19:06

I know - am a bit [shocked] - hence the apology........

pigletmania · 17/10/2011 19:08

She sounds a bit derrenged. Thought Feminism was about women making informed choices for themselves whatever they might be. If they choose to be a STAHM or working mum so be it. With that attitude I am surprised the human raise would cease to exist! Barmy woman.

pigletmania · 17/10/2011 19:08

meant race Grin

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 19:17

catgirl - yes, I agree that PIV isn't inherently degrading to women. THat's why I suspect this woman is confused or a bit odd (let's face it, ordering your mate not to have sex is odd, and does not sound to me like something any real feminist would do).

I was responding more to all the posts in the first few pages with people laughing all over the place at the idea of bothering to distinguish PIV from 'normal sex'.

Those posts do sound a bit like what you imagine repressed Victorian gentlemen sounded like, while congratulating themselves on their worldliness - 'the female orgasm?! Ha ha ha, no such thing!' 'Lesbianism? - Must be a myth, women don't enjoy sex!'.

AnyPhantomFucker · 17/10/2011 19:19

where is there a poster called AnyCorpseFucker Hmm Confused

SugarPasteZombie · 17/10/2011 19:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyPhantomFucker · 17/10/2011 19:21

catgirl, nobody disagrees with you that PIV is not inherently degrading

who are you arguing against ?

the woman described in the OP ? She isn't here Wink

catgirl1976 · 17/10/2011 19:29

Anyfucker - I am 36 weeks pregnant - I can start an argument in an empty room - sorry :(

And I never said Dworkin "needed a good seeing to" or agreed with those comments, but do maintain she must have had a very unpleasant experience of sex to come up with this idea and therefore it is a pretty flawed idea, by which I mean, sex that is abusive is degrading. Sex that is consensual isnt and it doesnt matter what goes where for that to be true.

ElderberrySyrup · 17/10/2011 19:30

I very much doubt Dworkin is saying PIV is 'inherently' degrading, she was not generally into things being 'inherently' anything; her take is generally that things are a certain way in the patriarchal context, not that that is their inherent nature.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 19:51

catgirl - if I understand Dworkin correctly (which, God knows, I often don't), she isn't saying quite what you paraphrase. I'm sure she'd agree sex that is abusive is degrading. But how does abuse happen, how do imbalances in relationships start? Up until very recently, it wasn't even considered rape for a man to insist on sex with his wife. Sex in our culture is very male-centric. That doesn't mean individual men are happy about that, or deliberately propping up a system, or anything. But it does mean we've inherited some ideas about sex, and male-female relationships, and whose body is important, that we all probably wish we'd never inherited.

IMO talking about PIV not just 'normal sex' is a good way to start thinking about those issues (if that's your poison, I get that it's not everyone's but personally I enjoy a good chat about sex).

swallowthree · 17/10/2011 19:56

What has it got to do with her - or anyone else for that matter ? Why do you need to ask anyone else what they think - never mind a load of random strangers ? Grow some self esteem and make your own mind up. Do what you want.

Fixture · 17/10/2011 19:58

[hbiscuit]

Georgimama · 17/10/2011 19:58

Perhaps it's splitting hairs - digital/oral/whatever else you can think of that doesn't involve PIV are all sexual activity but they aren't sexual intercourse.

As for this

"Those posts do sound a bit like what you imagine repressed Victorian gentlemen sounded like, while congratulating themselves on their worldliness - 'the female orgasm?! Ha ha ha, no such thing!' 'Lesbianism? - Must be a myth, women don't enjoy sex!'."

There's something depressingly predictable about women tearing chunks out of other women for not toeing the approved feminist line, which is the whole reason I keep the feminism topic hidden.

EllaDee · 17/10/2011 20:06

Why aren't they sexual intercourse georgie? What defines sexual intercourse?

I think it is a bit off to accuse me of 'tearing chunks' when I've read several pages of people chuckling merrily at the stupidity of an argument I agree with! How about tackling them before you take issue with me for replying?

HannahHack · 17/10/2011 20:07

Dworkin was gay wasn't she?

Though she did marry a man before she died who she was v in love with.

Georgimama · 17/10/2011 20:10

Well I've already said what I think sexual intercourse is (i.e PIV) but that has been soundly mocked by you so I won't bother to say it again.

Rollon2012 · 17/10/2011 20:11

Its nothing to do with her feminism its to do with the fact she's round and a bit barking its like religion the message isnt distorted the people portaying the message distort it.