AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

Of course she is :) There's no obligation to take part.

"she's not sure if she's still unconditionally wanted there any more"

I think you have taken it terribly personally, I don't know why, these groups are for all comers, you are perfectly free to go to church even as an atheist if you so desire, there's no 'entrance criteria' as far as I know in the CofE and even less so in the toddler groups.

I can't imagine what they were singing if it freaked you out that much (surely not the lovely Kumbyah?)

ChippingIn sure i have heard of pagan traditions but as the op isn't a pagan i doubt very much that the op is celebrating any pagan festival as she lays out her childrens santa sacks.

I've been to three different church kids' groups. One made no mention of Christianity at all. The other two did. I was okay with them mentioning it. I see it as no different to people talking about elves, King Arthur, Thor or anything else that is a traditional part of English culture.

At one of them, some evangelical visitors did a big speech on sin, burning in hell, that each of us was responsible for the torture of Christ etc, so we didn't go back to that one.

I think everyone has a different line that they draw on exactly how much religion they want their child to be exposed to. I don't think this is usually based on a fear of them growing up to be religious, but more about ensuring their childhood is one of positive influences. Only you can know whether or not the level of religious content in this group is more than you want your child exposed to.

Cantspel, I don't think it is really possible to separate culturally celebrating paganism from celebrating Christianity; they are too intertwined.

Its an expected exchange in my opinion. They provide a great group, they sing a few songs about Noah.

Tbh, I'm not Christian but the stories, especially those aimed at younger children are 'lovely' they have strong moral messages that fit into a child's developing social skills, mostly. The songs are about love, and the importance of giving thanks, and there's nowt wrong with it.

I went to a youth club from age 7 until 15 that was Christian run, we were asked to pray at the end... I'm not a Christian, it was no great shakes, there was no indoctrination, no judgements, it was run by good people and had little impact on my adult life other than to provide me with happy memories.

I am really torn on this one, I go to 2 church run groups. One is exactly like your group used to be - the lady who runs it does it for the community because she is a lovely person and wants to make it lovely for everyone, particularly the disadvantaged and unbelievers, the other is like your group is now.

I totally accept it's their group and they can run it how they like but it makes me feel hypocritical (which I realise is entirely my problem). I went there because the extra helpers made a huge difference with a toddler and a newborn, someone always volunteered to hold DS2 so I could get stuck into their exceptionally lovely cake. It does make me feel uncomfortable that I'm taking full advantage of their facilities but make sure I'm bfing DS2 during the singing so I can avoid getting too happy clappy. DS1 really enjoys the singing (due to the level of enthusiasm rather than the meaning) but I think I'm unlikely to take DS2 there so much now DS1 is at preschool.

In your position I think I'd just want confirmation that they didn't mind having unbelievers there, I don't think indoctrination is a big problem for the under 3s (DS1 never seems to listen to a word I say anyway) so it's really about making yourself feel more comfortable.

STOP PRESS! Church sings songs about Jesus!

I really don't think there is an exchange going on in these groups. They're not trying to lure mothers in with the promise of a digestive and a bit of childcare because they want an audience for their Christian singsong! Often people do it because they genuinely like young children and have no young children/grandchildren of their own.

Milly the op stated she felt a hypocrite attending when she is a non believer. So my point was if she can still enjoy christmas as a non believer why should going to a toddler group be any different.

Every atheist i know still does christmas but just views it as a family holiday rather than a pagan festival.

Cantspel, as I said in my post, people have different places where they draw the line on religion. For the OP, it may be after Christmas but before parables. I don't see anything inconsistent in that, although personally I would be comfortable with both and had the Nick Butterworth parable picture books for my kids when they were little.

I think anybody, atheist or otherwise, would have to be spectacularly uneducated to be unaware that their holiday celebrations didn't have both pagan and Christian roots. It doesn't mean they believe in the religious ideas behind those celebrations.

That should have said 'did have' not 'didn't have.'

Sorry MillyR I meant its a fair exchange. There was certainly no pressure at any of the groups I attended to convert. However, by the very nature of being Christian, there word was spread, in a very passive, lovely, welcoming way. Their priority was to give something to the community, but they couldn't NOT 'advertise' their faith because their very nature was a great advert?

I do have an issue with Christianity being part of school life though, as people don't really have the option to opt out. But I still wasn't 'damaged' and my eldest and I have had some great discussions on belief and faith because of what he's surrounded by at school.

I didn't mean to single you out AW; you were just the most recent person to make that kind of point. I didn't mean to sound quite so argumentative!

What is sad about the demise of Christianity in the UK is that church is one of the main ways that many elderly people interact with the community, and the youth in that community is dwindling. I think church toddler groups can be a good inter-generational experience for the parents, kids and helpers (although I don't know the ages in the OP's groups).

I agree with you but would argue that its not just about the demise of Christianity, but of some of the good values and community spirit that came with it.

I'm a country lass and have noticed that where the Church dwindles, other groups crop up. There's a choir in our village that's got nothing to do with the Church, and sings in residential homes quite regularly (they're a great audience)... but yes, usually people expected to Church to do these things, and when the Church dwindles, many people just can't be bothered organising stuff themselves. I agree with you that THAT is very sad.

Though I am agnostic and very much into community stuff. I tend to fizz and spit a little when I walk on hallowed ground... I do have great respect for the Church and its traditions though. Its part of my personal cultural history whether I have faith or not really.

Oh and I didn't think you were being snippy at all! I had meant to put 'fair exchange' rather than it read like there was a contract to sign at the door.

I agree with aldi whore. Some very good points there.

I just think it would be a massive cheek to mention that you don't like the Christian songs/mentions whilst in a CHURCH, using CHURCH facilities and run by a VICAR's wife (who is probably doing it voluntarily for nothing).

It's not hardcore porn, it's not violent video games, it's not brainwashing. It's old fashioned stories with morals that will not harm your child. Whatever you think of their of their religious views, please respect them, you are on their turf after all.

However, I would agree that Old Testament hellfire and brimstone stuff is not suitable. Songs about Noah and the Feeding of the 5000 etc are not going to psychologically damage anyone.

However, I would agree that Old Testament hellfire and brimstone stuff is not suitable. Songs about Noah and the Feeding of the 5000 etc are not going to psychologically damage anyone.

True - though the story of Noah is really horrible if you stop and think about it. Which probably goes to show that small children don't analyse stories and songs much and so its pretty irrelevant whether the toddler group sings or not. Must admit my favourite song to sing to DD when she was wee and I was trundling her along in a pushchair was 'the animals went in two by two'

then dont fucking go

the church is subidsing a group that you attend

vite with you feet and go to the playground instead

and churches tend to run toddler groups to atrach more people to church so I think your feedback will not be appreciated TBH

Yes you are being VU.

Go and find another group.

You would not buy a packet of Jammie Dodgers and then complain "Oh but I don't like jam" Would you?

Or maybe you would. Some people really take the biscuit.

An aside - and I am not evangelising, promise.

Your OP seems quite bound up with resisting religious involvement or possibly seeing it as a kind of superstition at the moment, and I am wondering how this might have come about? Were your parents atheist, or is this something you came to by yourself later in life? Have you ever had any sense of a greater being/spirituality/god or is this something that has never appeared on your radar.

Just interested.

Boffinmum, that does sound rather evangelising, because you are claiming that atheists are not spiritual.

OP, I feel for you.

A couple of years ago we lived in a large city, and DS2 was enrolled in nursery school. It was run out of a church basement as these things very often are here, but there was no religious component to it at all.

Last year I enrolled him in nursery school in our new much smaller town. It is the only nursery school in town, and is also run out of a church. I was absolutely gob-smacked at the end of the year 'graduation' ceremony when they prayed before the celebratory potluck. It had never dawned on me that there would be a religious component to it, and I felt almost as if I had been fooled because it had never been mentioned before that this was part of their routine. Tbh, I was glad I found out only on the last day because otherwise I would have had to do some hard thinking about whether to keep DS in the program.

Did it? Aren't they?