AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

YABU, the point if these groups is to outreach, serve the community and grow the faithful. Some mums and children find their faith this way.

Little children can learn that the 10 commandments are good rules to live by, that Jesus loves them unconditionally (and they may not experience unconditional love in any other way).

Our church motto is "serving to grow, growing to serve", which pretty much sums up the relationship between the church and the wider community.

There is one near us which runs two groups - one non-denominational, and one which they tell bible stories and sing hymns rather than standard nursery rhymes, which anyone is welcome to attend. Perhaps this group just didn't want to run twice.

Iggly I disagree about the faith school bit. The catholic primary nearest us is the best school in the area but I'd feel uncomfortable with applying there (even though I know there are lots of pupils who attend from various other religions). I probably wouldn't go to a toddler group which was particularly faith-based, but if I had been going to a group and had friends there and organisers then introduced a faith element I probably wouldn't stop going.

I'm coming from the point of view of a practicing Christian, so...

I think that you should feel free to say to the vicars wife that the songs and Bible stories have made you feel uncomfortable, as a person without a faith, and that because of that, you're thinking of going to a different group. but say that to explain your feelings and behaviour, not because you should expect her to change how things are run based on your attitude. I think it would be more awkward for her to have you disappear without a word, than for you to explain your feelings, and for you to have a chance to discuss it together.

OP, I'm pretty sure you know that you answered your own question in the first sentence of the post. Of course YABU.

Bertie, I was being slightly tongue in cheek

YABU. If people are going to feel uncomfortable about it then they should think twice about going to a toddler group run in a church.

Maybe they don't want people at the group who are very much into different faiths or are atheist.

Good practice for the compulsory act of worship in all schools in England once they hit primary...

Seriously, I have no problem with this, my children both went to a wonderful church toddler group for years and the people were just amazingly friendly and there was no preaching. The religious bit was that they said grace before the biscuits and juice. I don't count singing a religious song or telling the story of Noah as indoctrination and would be happy for them to teach mine what are essential stories in our culture, even if you don't believe them as tenets of faith.

It's also no coincidence that these Christian volunteers are prepared to put so much energy into outreach in the local community, that's also part of their faith.

I respect them for that, and you do benefit from it. Other toddler groups I went to weren't as organized or as nice or were run by the council for money (I did go to a nice one run by parents themselves, but people kept leaving and it was hard to keep going).

Yabu, it's a church group, so you can hardly complain if they want to introduce a few stories from the Bible and Christian songs. I've been to lots of groups run by churches, some will do this and some won't, but all of them have been welcoming to everyone regardless of their religious background, or indeed lack of it.

If you enjoy this group I think it would be a shame if you were put off by this.
At this age it's just another song or story to the kids and they will come across Bible stories at school in later years. Obviously when they are older they will discover that different people have different views and beliefs etc.

How long have you been going?

I went to one like this and they only did the church story/song on the first week of the month. Plenty of people used to turn up late to avoid that bit

I would just used to sit there politely and not join in with the songs or affirmations aobut Jesus. Not in a rude way, I just would sit and smile.

Are you really going to let this spoil your enjoyment of a resource which has supported you and your family for the last 7 years? You have been the benificary of Christians living in a Christ-like manner and supporting their fellow folk. It's not the stories and the songs that are making it a Christian group. It's the attitude of love practiced by those running it.

If you don't want to be associated with the faith then tbh it's a bit late now.

If they have always been friendly, I'm sure it's not their intention to make it seem unwelcoming to anyone.

Do you really need replies to this question?

Right, so it's a pretty conclusive that I am being unreasonable! I kind of knew I was. However, I do still feel genuinely gutted (yes, I think gutted probably is the right strength of emotion) about it. It may not be rational. I've loved going to that group and now I'm unsure as to whether I'm welcome.

I'm not sure why I feel so uncomfortable about the religious element. I went to church schools and sang in church choirs for years. I think compared to most people I have a pretty good understanding of Christian beliefs and culture. I didn't end up a "believer" despite this, so obviously I don't think a few stories and songs are going to affect my dc particularly. I think it might be about me feeling hypocritical participating, even tacitly, in something I really don't believe in, particularly when I know how important it is to lots of people. I feel the same way at church weddings and christenings.

In the past I have decided not to attend other groups that include religious songs / stories. I think the difference here is that for the last 7 years this group has not been actively religious. If it had been, I think it's unlikely that I would have been a regular. I feel very much part of it, and now I feel as if I may be unwelcome. This might be just my perception, or as others have pointed out, they may indeed have taken a decision that they only want people of faith to attend.

Incidentally, I feel I am fortunate that I don't have to make the decision about whether to send my children to faith schools or not. I am uncomfortable about the state funding schools which actively promote religion instead of primarily providing education for children in the local community. But I know that is a whole other thread.... My dcs school get around the daily act of worship by interpreting it very loosely, for which I am grateful.

In the past I have felt that this group has been a fantastic advert for christianity, despite, or maybe even because of the fact, that it did not actively promote its beliefs. I have always been very impressed by the commitment of the lovely volunteers who run the group and I do understand that this is linked to their faith.

Your toddler group sounds exactly the same as the one we used to go to. I'm an atheist and had no problem with the little "Jesus loves all little children" type of songs - the sentiment behind them is quite sweet really.

I didn't have a problem with religious services at primary school when they came along either. I've always been quite lucky I suppose as my DS has never had Christian religious teachings rammed down his throat at school and taught as "fact" or made to feel that he had no place to question it. If that had ever happened it would have been a different matter entirely. Now he's at secondary school RE is just a subject in which the kids are taught to examine, explore and question all sorts of belief systems - which is just as RE should be taught so all is good.

I agree with the view that a lot of Christian religious stuff underpins our culture (Christmas, Easter etc) so kids need to engage with it to a degree.

I went through the whole bit as a child; Sunday school the lot and I still managed to come out of it unscathed - as an atheist!!

Don't worry about it. Just enjoy the fab toddler group.

I was born into a RC family, mass every Sunday until I was 16, Catholic schools, the works and I still managed to turn into a born-again atheist! (Who still quite likes some hymns and carols, oh the shame! )

So I'd say I know how you feel but don't over think it and if you like the group keep going and rest assured it won't cause any lasting damage to your LO's

I think you are being unreasonable and i think it would be unfair of you to say anything to the lady that runs it. If you don't like it, don't go.

I think it's hugley unlikely that they are trying to exclude non-Christians. I am a Christian and our toddler group is running a bible study course (bit like Alpha) after one of the sessions. This isn't to get people to go away, it's because we believe we have Good News to share. If people don't want to hear that, ok well they're welcome to drink our tea and play with our lego because they are our neighbours and as well as sharing Good News it's our job to love them.

I feel like a rousing chorus of Shine Jesus Shine now - I know that probably reads in a highly annoying way but I really don't mean it like that. It's just that quite often Christians have fluffy nice motives for doing stuff not evil grumpy ones!

A fantastic advert for Christianity, because they didn't advertise they were Christian?

I think actually, you've got a bit of a cheek. It's housed in a church, funded by the church and run by church volunteers. And now you're moaning because they've mentioned Jesus? I don't mean to be horrible because you sound really nice but really...

Did everyone miss the bit where neolara said she had been going for 7 years. Of course she is not BU being upset when it changes.
Personally I love the C of E. I love that England has a religion that you don't have to believe in to be part of.A nice subtle very English version.Perfect.

Errrrr are you serious? You aren't part of the Church of England unless you commit to the faith. It doesn't come along with your postcode.

No, thanks I didn't miss that bit. And had it been in the local community centre I would agree with you but come on, it's a bit much to expect such a set up never to mention religion at all.

It doesn't mean it's not still a wonderful toddler group and no one has said she can't still go. That's her spin on it which is a bit melodramatic.

aren't all children's nursery rhymes and stories nonsense though?