AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

Why would you mind your child singing a song about Jesus, surely its no worse than them singing one about a unicorn or a dish running away with a spoon. I sent my older children to a catholic school for 12 years even though we practice a completely different religion and there were never any adverse effects even though what they were being taught was not in agreement to what they were learning at home. I just explained why we believed and practiced different beliefs and as it happens 2 out of the 3 of them dont practice any faith now - so much for all the brainwashing and indoctrination.

Just to clarify the bit about thinking the volunteers were a great advert for Christianity almost because they didn't actively promote it - I guess it's because they do all the great stuff and it's not conditional on anyone believing the same as them, they do it simply because their beliefs tell them that they should love their neighbour, "do unto others" etc. It didn't matter if their people who they did the great stuff to were Christian, Muslim, Hindu, athiests etc.

I do get that lots of people think I am being unreasonable. Honestly!

Maybe I'll ask them if they mind non-believers coming. Crap idea? Go on, tell me what you think. I can take it!

Do you feel hypocritical when you fill your childs christmas stocking and watch them go squeel with excitement on christmas morning?

TBH I think it takes a bit more than a few songs intermingled with nursery rhymes and a bit of Jesus talk to turn someone into a Christian. I happen to be C of E, but thinking about this, if it was another religion and I liked the group, I am not sure a little bit of religious talk would bother me that much, and if people were being friendly I might still go along. But it's up to you, of course.

No, that's a crap idea! Of course they don't mind you going. It sounds great, nod and smile during the songs and carry on as you were. They'll think you're bonkers if you make a big deal of it :)

They won't mind non-believers going, really.

I would just chill. It's not exactly a life changing cult type of thing.

YANBU to be upset that after 7 years it has suddenly changed - without any discussion/warning. I don't know why you are getting such a hard time as for seven years it hasn't been run this way - so I don't know why people are implying you are rude/stupid/whatever to be uncomfortable with this new version of your toddler group?? People are odd.

I agree with GrendelsMum - I think you should talk to the new lady running it and explain how you feel - there's no harm in doing that. Talking about it with her will either make you feel comfortable attending or confirm that it's time to find a new group.

I am an agnostic athiest (people who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and I would feel uncomfortable if it suddenly changed, I would also feel that perhaphs I shouldn't be there, so I would want to 'clear the air' with the woman running it. Not to ask them to change, but just to be clear where I stand and see if I was still welcome without having to pretend to agree with their beliefs.

As far as the kids go, it wouldn't worry me - one fairytale is much like another

One of the reasons I might feel a bit sensitive about this is that last year I went to a very nice toddler group that was run in a church hall. At one point I got into a discussion with the leader (vicar's wife, really nice woman) about whether I believed, why I didn't and when she discovered I didn't she did actively try to persuade me otherwise. It was a very uncomfortable conversation. I didn't start it. I was polite. I tried to be non-committal. But subsequently, I definitely got the impression I wasn't particularly welcome. I stopped going.

Pretty much all the toddler groups in my area are run in churches. I guess they have the space and resources to run them.

cantspel - have you heard of pagan tradition?

Can't you just leave when they start singing, if it's quite near the end? I absolutely can't listen to or sing modern Christian songs, personally. They are usually so utterly rubbish and cringeworthy that they make me snigger or pull faces and that would be offensive so I couldn't take the risk. Hymns are nice though.

Actually, hymns are rubbish too, if you listen to the words. Nowt wrong with toddler-level All Things Bright & Beautiful and Silent Night, though. Harmless mythology with pretty tunes :)

neolara, I do see why you felt discomfited by the vicar's off-the-cuff conversion effort. TBH though, I don't think it's any worse than another mother trying to get you in her Mary Kay pyramid or whatever

Tris - some modern songs should be hurled in to outer darkness yes 'I'm sepcial because God has loved me' is one of my particular 'going to chuck' moments but some modern songs are quite simply amazing. Look at these lyrics - nothing rubbish here

In Christ alone my hope is found,
He is my light, my strength, my song;
this Cornerstone, this solid Ground,
firm through the fiercest drought and storm.
What heights of love, what depths of peace,
when fears are stilled, when strivings cease!
My Comforter, my All in All,
here in the love of Christ I stand.

In Christ alone! who took on flesh
Fulness of God in helpless babe!
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones he came to save:
Till on that cross as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied -
For every sin on Him was laid;
Here in the death of Christ I live.

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain:
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave he rose again!
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me,
For I am His and He is mine -
Bought with the precious blood of Christ.

No guilt in life, no fear in death,
This is the power of Christ in me;
From life's first cry to final breath.
Jesus commands my destiny.
No power of hell, no scheme of man,
Can ever pluck me from His hand;
Till He returns or calls me home,
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand.

neolara - I don't for one minute think they wouldn't want you there. Your perception is making you think this way.

It's your choice to leave and your choice to stay.

You cannot control the way they run the group however and it sounds a great group!
I am a Christian but totally get how you feel about overt evangelism -I hate it as well. It's often smug 'I'm better than you' stuff whereas living your life well is a far better message

Northern you have to hear that one. It is epic when sung well

sometimes religion is very devious about the ways it sucks people in over years of knocking on the door.

Op if you don't want your dc or dc's to have anything to do with religion then you are going to have a long hard struggle on your hands for the next 10 years. You can get your dc excluded form religious services at school, you need to op out though as default is everyone is given religious instruction. Which then pulling your dc out makes it more alluring - clever isn't it You will need to avoid all churches and BBC tv and radio, it creeps into radio programs and tv shows - you can get rid of the tv and just have iplayer as they are less likely to pick out religious programs. It is in a lot of places and areas and you can descreatly avoid a lot of it without making to much of a fuss - but the infants and junior school is not so easy.

You will need to avoid church toddler groups (if you dance then you have to dance to their tune so to speak)

By the time your dc gets to 10-11 and then changes to secondary it does get easier and then at this stage if they are going to turn to religion then they will and surely can as they are by this stage older and can make their own choices.

I have no problem going into a church building or staying for a service at a funeral or wedding. I celebrate yule time/mid winter and have santa and stockings - I thought coke a cola made up santain the early 1900's and presents where given for fun, not aware they had religious meaning?

I know but I thought Youtube links might be a bit much? It's easy to find if anyone wants to 'In Christ Alone' By Stuart Townend and Keith Getty.

Presents are like Easter Eggs - to Christians they represent God's gift to the world of His Son Jesus Christ who died for our sin. To non believers they're nice stuff. Its nice stuff to Christians too of course. I don't buy my dcs presents thinking now this pair of gloves represents Christ and this MP3 represents Christ and this book I'm buying for dh represents Christ. I buy stuff but if you ask my why I would have to say Jesus is the reason for the Season (nobody chuck up!)

(Oh and I know Christmas is actually Pagan festival time and Christmas should actually be in August)

So, speaking as a Vicar's wife who has run toddler groups, I would so much rather you came to me and told me how you feel rather than just stopped coming along. Firstly, this would give me a clue as to how some people had found the changes, and feedback is always welcome, especially if people are feeling uncomfortable. Secondly, it would give me a chance to explain to you the rationale behind the changes, which you may or may not agree with, but at least we could be open and honest about it all. Thirdly, I wouldn't feel anxious as to why you had stopped coming (Have you had some personal catastrophe that you needed support with? Did one of us really offend you and need to apologise?), and fourthly, it would give me a chance to reassure you that (and I am speaking for myself here, obviously, not her) you would always be welcome in the group, no matter what your opinion of Christianity.

So please say something to her. And if you really don't want her to talk you about your religious beliefs, then make that clear to her in your conversation. I would always rather know when someone would rather chat about the X-Factor than anything more serious.

ivykaty- I've never seen it like that tbh! I think the UK is quite secular now or multi faith. I rarely mention my faith because I absolutely do not wish to ram it down anyone's throat and I dislike intensely the indoctrination that existed 10 years ago.
If anything I find a backlash against Christianity almost everywhere I go and usually ill informed stuff. If it was other faiths I think it's more 'cool'

Northanlurker, I initially read 'I'm sepcial because God has loved me' as I'm skeptical because God has loved me. My mind was boggling at that song.

I love "In Christ Alone" too.. and "Before the throne of God above" is another fantastic modern hymn.

I am a Christian and I still feel uncomfortable about Christian songs at a toddler group. The one i go to asks if you own a bible when you sign in at first. I humour this on account of the excellent and plentiful biscuits . Most churches have toddler groups and I don't see them as a vehicle for sharing Christianity as such with stories and songs. I see them as part of the duty a church has to care for all in the community, christian or not. At best it is an opportunity to show what people do as service as part of a christian life. So yanbu.

I would have thought the same as LadyPeterWimsey (though not speaking from the POV of a Vicar's wife). There is no point in there being a mini-exodus from the group and them never knowing the reason.