AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

Ah, rightyo, got it now, thanks for explaining :)

Milly R conversely, using your analogy, bringing your children up to be atheist/non-religious might be like telling them stick their fingers in their ears and not to listen to a song that they can hear quite loudly.

I was brought up by two atheists, I fing the song louder as I get older.

HG, did you talk to your parents about it? Did you tell them you could feel God/had heard God or similar. What did they say?

Sorry if that is too much of a personal question.

HG - most atheists I know are quite scrupulous about doing something more like saying to their kids , 'some people say they can hear this song that I can't' (sounds like your parents didn't take this line though)

exotic :

Freedom of thought is very important-the last thing we need are the 'thought police' telling us what we can and can't think.
SGB is clear enough you can think what you like but that she reserves her right to vocally disagree. Now just think a moment who in society really does try to tell us what to think ... here is a current example.

I suppose it's just a bit odd to have grown up in the seventies without ever really going in a church (except at Christmas with school) or being christened (most of my friends are, even if they are not believers). I'm not sure how we swerved it so completely really, going to Sunday School was pretty common in those days. I had to piece together Bible stories from bits I heard (e.g. I didn't know the significance of Noah and the Ark). That's why I do like the idea of my children hearing about these stories (as stories) alongside other religious stories, as I think there's a whole range of cultural references and experiences to which they refer.

Personally, I don't tell my children that God is present. I don't know if he is or isn't and I don't intend to tell them about matters of their own heart. But I do like to take them to places that encourage contemplation, such as to light a candle in their father's church a couple of times a year. I don't see it as making them hear a song that doesn't exist, but probably, like you, to get them to understand different people do hear songs and what they mean to them. I think trying to tell them that there absolutely is no song is just as rigid, especially as they may hear one (and, being your children and free in spirit, it'll be the one you don't want them to hear!)

HG - I think RE in schools is better now than in those days, because there's no assumption you've heard it all at sunday school. Its just occurred to me though that maybe there's a gap in the market - I've never come across a book for kids analagous to the 'Greek myths and legends' type of thing but telling the judaeo-christian stories.

There are hundreds of children's Bibles to choose from, all with a selection of the most well-known stories in. Most of them don't have "this is all true and not made up" written in large letters over the pages, so you could read them any way you wish to...

I've not seen one which was written from anything other than the christian perspective TBH. Maybe I've not looked hard enough but they seemed overly bowdlerized and saccharine.

Grimma - The brick testament - bible stories told irreverently but accurately in lego are quite good.

www.amazon.com/Brick-Bible-New-Spin-Testament/dp/1616084219/ref=nosim/thebricktesta-20/

Oh - I've seen some of the pictures from that linked to on silly Friday night threads, didnt realise there was an actual book. From what I remember, not one for little kids!

To OP only (because I have not read the whole thread quite frankly it is too long and I am in a position of first hand experience) - I have recently taken over a playgroup singing time which is in a Church. Before I started doing it the woman that ran it was too afraid of putting religious songs in because she was frightened it would scare people away.

My view, and the reason why I introduced the songs is that I think it is sad for people to come along and use the playgroup without people appreciating who the people are that are running it (and also where it comes from). It is a Christian playgroup and is still fully inclusive but in amongst the twinkle, twinkles we sometimes have a little Christian nursery rhyme. The children love all of the nursery rhymes religious or not and love the actions. It doesn't matter if they don't believe - they just enjoy it for what it is - a cute nursery rhyme.

I see it as "introduction" of a new concept, a bit like counting songs introduce the concept of numbers and something interesting to think about. It is not indoctrination because this implies I am telling them what to think and forcing it on them. What children believe will primarily come from the parents however, it gives the child something to think about - a child might go home and say "mummy, who is God?" - which to me is always a good question to begin with. By asking these questions they will form their own beliefs and become independent thinkers, even if they end up not believing in God.

I believe that telling children there is no God is as much indoctrination in the other direction as telling them categorically there is a God.

I think that's all reasonable, Ali - and as someone mentioned further down the thread, its a gentle introduction to school 'collective worship'.

Some of those songs stick whether you (still) believe them or not ... this thread has resulted in having a couple running round my head 'The best book to read is the Bible' and 'Tell me the stories of Jesus' ...

Grimma, there is a set of Nick Butterworth (Percy the Park keeper writer) which covers the parables and some episodes in the life of Jesus (the Jesus ones are told by animals).

www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Sheep-Stories-Jesus-Told/dp/1859857469

I think these are quite useful for cultural purposes, because parables like the good samaritan are often used as cultural reference points.

Grimma - I think the book is a bit sanitised compared to the website - my son has been bringing home photocopied sections from it to write captions for, as part of his RE homework.

We have those Nick Butterworth ones, they're nicely written and illustrated and with no obvious slant/bias/agenda or whatever you want to call it, there is also an Usborne children's bible, but in its total lack of anything approaching warmth it becomes rather bland (imho )

AliGrylls - agreed, good post.

I believe that telling children there is no God is as much indoctrination in the other direction as telling them categorically there is a God.

My argument completely. One thing is for sure-they will make up their own mind. You don't get adults saying 'I think........ because my mother thinks it!'

I think the correct thing to say to children is, There is no evidence (in the rational scientific meaning of the word) that God exists.

I don't think it's indoctrination to tell your child that the world wasn't created in 6 days, or that for sure human parthenogenesis is not possible, and that snakes have no legs due to evolutionary processes, and not because they tempted Eve to eat an apple.

I don't think it's indoctrination to tell children that the stories in the bible are as valid as any other creation myth - and by no means any more plausible than any other monotheistic or polytheistic belief system.

However, it is indoctrination if you say to your child that categorically the only correct belief system is atheism.

You can just point out all the logic fails and the negative aspects of taking mythical crap seriously in age appropriate ways, that will do the trick.

Not with all SGB-it would make me think think the opposite.

Everyone should just put 2 words in front on any statement

'I believe.....'
'Christians believe.......'
Muslims believe....'
etc

I bet most people on here don't think exactly as your parents think, so it beats me why you should expect your DCs to think the same as you.

I dont think the issue here is about indoctrination one way or the other. It is fine to teach your kids christian nursery rhymes and fine not to.

I'm sure most kids wont remember what went on at toddler group anyway - its mainly for the parents -to get out, to make friends etc...

The point is if you are running a toddler group as a chance for parents to get together and you want it to be as inclusive as possible, go easy on the religious content. If you want to run a religious themed toddler group that is fine too, just be aware that not everyone will feel welcome.

I used to go to a lovely toddler group that was in a v. happy clappy church. It was super friendly, and showered you with love and invitations to Alpha courses etc... In the end i stopped going because i felt i was enjoying their hospitality under false pretenses as there was fuck all chance of me ever seeing the light and they were wasting their time and custard creams on us.

I don't expect they minded Himalaya-they must be used to it.

I stopped going to one or two toddler groups that were a bit too heavy on the superstition myself. One was in a venue I thought of as 'The Waco Compound' full of horrendous inept paintings of some of the more alarming bits of Christian mytholgy, another too overpopulated by the Saved who would stare at you fixedly while telling you about what an unbeliever they had been and how bible class had turned their lives around...

I can't imagine why you started!